78. You're a Pal and a Confidant: Grown & Growing Friendships

Friendship in adulthood isn’t always as effortless as it once was. Sonia and Roberta talk about navigating friendships in adulthood—through life changes, busy schedules, and shifting priorities. They reflect on their own 20+ year bond, the role of honesty, the reality of drifting apart, and whether jealousy has a place in friendship (looking at you, Oprah). Plus, they ask: Who’s your Golden Girls match? Grab your beverage of choice and hit play on this convo.

What Roberta is drinking in this episode:

Finca Torremilanos Montecastrillo Tempranillo 2020

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Chapters

• 0:00 Check-in on Your Friends
• 5:31 Friendship Dynamics and Personal Growth
• 13:15 Changing Expectations
• 23:32 Redefining Best Friends
• 30:30 Jealousy and Imbalance in Friendships
• 37:49 What a Good Friend Looks Like
• 49:02 When Kids Enter the Chat
• 59:53 When Friendships End
• 1:11:39 Building New Connections

Transcript

Sonia (00:15)
What's up y'all? Welcome back to the Grown and Growing podcast. I'm Sonia Hey, Berta. What are you drinking? Let's start with the important things. it's red. I mean, it's dark.

Roberta (00:20)
And I'm Roberta. Hey, hey, hey.

Right, the important thing. I'm drinking,

yes, it's red and it's dark. I'm drinking a Tempranillo, which is from Spain. She's dark and stormy. Pretty much, it's a dark and stormy night in DC.

Sonia (00:42)
Is that how you're feeling tonight? Dark and stormy.

Okay, well, that's what I feel like that has other connotations to it. But today we should be talking about friendship girl. So you can cuddle up with a good friend. That's me. so before we get started, the podcast is about friendship and, I would be not a good friend. I think if I didn't ask you, how are you doing? Like, I don't want to start this podcast. Like,

Roberta (00:53)
Well... Right.

Yes. Yes.

Sonia (01:18)
I know it's a reprieve for people. Like I want it to be a reprieve where you don't feel like you have to think about what's happening in the outside world. But also let's not ignore that we are living in the unprecedented of unprecedented times. So I just want to check in and see how you doing.

Roberta (01:37)
Thanks, I'm doing pretty good actually, all things considered. I'm feeling very grateful. I'm in a gratitude space, mainly around my job. As much as it's challenging me right now, I really do love it. And also I'm grateful that I have a job. mean, most of last year I did not. And a lot of my friends here in DC have recently lost their jobs. And so...

part of that gratitude is showing up at work, but also trying to be helpful for my friends who are looking for work. So yeah.

Sonia (02:11)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

I'm glad you talked about work, because I feel like I am definitely grateful for my job, but I, you know, I don't know how I'm handling.

this all of these changes. Like sometimes I'm like, do I need to get back in therapy to talk about some of the things that I am thinking about? Like I think I've said it in previous podcasts, but I am a news junkie. I like news. I like to be informed, but I'm just like, yo, this is a lot. It's overwhelming. And I think to your point about living near DC, you just feel.

Roberta (02:42)
It's overwhelming right now, I can't.

Sonia (02:49)
so much for the families, the federal workers. Like, I think we all have, you can either know somebody, you can't not know somebody who doesn't work for the federal government down here in some way, either directly or as a contractor.

Roberta (02:59)
in some way.

Exactly.

Sonia (03:04)
And I think that's tough for me. And I think when it comes to my job, I've been in my job for 15 years. I'm grateful for it. I work with really good people. But sometimes I feel like when I go in there, I'm like in Bizarro world. Because we ain't talking about it. We're like, let's edit this ad. Is it hitting the right tone? I'm like, does any of this matter?

Roberta (03:18)
Right, right. Exactly, like people...

Sonia (03:29)
at the end of the day. Sometimes it's how I feel because I'm like, oof. But I am grateful for the coworkers who don't feel bad about talking about it. Like where we can just spend a few moments like saying, yo, this is a shit show. And for some reason that makes me feel better because I'm like, okay, you get it too. You're feeling it too.

Roberta (03:29)
Yes.

Sonia (03:52)
Anyway, because this podcast is about friendship.

And friendship is a part of community, right? It's not all a community, but it's a part of it. I think it's important that we check in on how our friends are doing. So that's it. That's all. You look good though.

Roberta (04:05)
Yeah.

That's that's all, that's good, thank you.

Sonia (04:13)
you

Roberta (04:14)
All right, so we're gonna ease into two friendships. so one question I have, very important question.

Sonia (04:21)
Let's start out with the important questions.

Roberta (04:24)
question. Which golden girl are you?

Sonia (04:28)
easy. Hands down. Yes. Okay, go ahead.

Roberta (04:31)
Really? Wait, okay, let me see if I can guess.

You are, ooh, I think you're Sophia, but you're probably gonna say you're Dorothy.

Sonia (04:42)
What? Hell yeah, I'm Dorothy.

I mean, I could be, you know what? They are mother and daughter, so. But I definitely think that I am Dorothy Zbornak. I've been told I'm Dorothy Zbornak too. why do think I'm Sophia?

Roberta (04:49)
Eh, eh.

Because she's the one who comes in with the quips and is the one who's not like a know-it-all, but kind of like a know-it-all.

Sonia (05:09)
you

Wait, so you think I'm know-it-all?

Roberta (05:14)
But like...

No, mean sorta.

Sonia (05:20)
You wouldn't be the first.

Okay. Dang, you call me Sophia. I'm not offended by that.

Roberta (05:31)
That's

Why?! Like, first of all, like all of them are wonderful. I can, I can be either one. It just depends on which day you catch me on.

Sonia (05:35)
Yes, they are in their own way.

True, true, but I think there's something very sarcastic about Dorothy that I just relate to, because I could be very

Roberta (05:51)
Very pedantic,

Sonia (06:12)
but I would call you, I mean, it's either, it's definitely not Blanche or Rose for sure. It I have Rose friends, you're not one of them, which I love Rose, so that's not a slight to anybody who falls in that category. I'm gonna say Dorothy with,

Roberta (06:19)
Interesting, okay.

Yeah, I would

probably, yeah, say Dorothy. Yeah, yeah.

Sonia (06:30)
Yeah, with tinges of everybody else, which,

you know, they live in the same house for a reason. so which one is your favorite? So I think you're Dorothy, you think you're Dorothy, is Dorothy your favorite?

Roberta (06:37)
True,

feel like my favorite is Sophia. She's just so darn lovable.

Sonia (06:45)
Mmm.

Roberta (06:58)
Like she can just say whatever the heck she wants to say and people just love her anyway. Like that's what I aspire to. Yeah. Just completely oblivious right.

Sonia (07:03)
Yeah.

That's just something about existing in the world without a clue. Just

oblivious and happy and you just look at them and say, God bless them. They just in their own world. Bless her heart.

Roberta (07:18)
Right, bless our heart. Okay.

Sonia (07:23)
All right, so

obviously we've been knowing each other since 2002. That's a long time, dang. I want you to share what you value about me as a friend, and I'm going to share what I value about you as a friend. But.

Roberta (07:29)
Yes, woo hoo hoo hoo hoo, that's a long time.

Sonia (07:41)
You can, you can start or do you want me to go first? Which one? I'll let you choose. Okay.

Roberta (07:46)
first,

I appreciate the fact that you are very honest and very smart about your honesty. So like you're the person I come to for advice, like real advice. Not like to confirm what I already know kind of advice, but like no, I need help figuring this thing out. You're that person. And also you're very reliable and just yeah, have a person of integrity. And so I admire all those things about you.

Sonia (08:14)
Now I don't mind that you call me Sophia. Thank you, I appreciate that. So what I admire about you The first things are,

Roberta (08:17)
Ha!

Yes, you're welcome.

Sonia (08:29)
just how you move through life. And I think this, I think I admire this about you because it's very different than how I move through life. I am a very controlled and structured person. And so when I go through things, I, you know, I think about them in a certain way. You are a free spirit and we've known each other for what, 23 years and you have evolved so much since I

We talk about that you used to be a 40 year old white woman when we were 24. We talked about that. But I feel very privileged to be able to go through life with you because I've seen you in ups and downs and I just see you as a very resilient person.

Roberta (09:04)
Woo!

Sonia (09:21)
And I feel like, you know, especially over these last few years, I feel like you've become more of yourself and more comfortable of yourself. And I just feel like that is a privilege to watch. Not everybody goes through evolutions very smoothly. Like sometimes it's hard and I've seen you be resilient through some of the toughest times.

And I just really admire that about you. And it makes me really proud to be your friend and that you allow me to be a part of your life and see you at vulnerable moments. like I said, we are very different people. So sometimes I'm living vicariously through you.

and your experiences, which takes me to my second thing that I love about you. I love how you just are so freaking bougie. Like, you are bougie, you are all things high end. Anything I wanna know about the world, about cuisine.

Roberta (10:07)
Yeah.

You

Sonia (10:24)
about decor, about anything that is beautiful and lovely. I'm gonna ask Roberta, because I don't know any of that stuff. It's like, you know all the foods, you drink all the wines, you travel to all the places. And so you like, look, you come to me for advice, I come to you for advice about where to go, what to eat, to travel. So you have a very refined palette.

Roberta (10:35)
That's so funny.

Hmm.

Sonia (10:54)
The funny thing about you, I'm gonna just add this little tidbit. You love fine things in life, but you are also cheap as hell. Like, how do you balance these two things? You're like, oh, I'm gonna splurge on this vacation, but girl, this podcast mic cost too much. I was like, are you serious?

Roberta (10:56)
Yeah, sure.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's fair. That's fair. Because...

That's thing, I have this weird internal value system and I'm pretty sure a lot of my friends will co-sign this because I'll be like, nah, I'm not doing that. I just have this weird, if I find value in it, I will invest in it and if I don't, I won't. It's weird. But I will say thank you for that. It's interesting to hear someone else's lens and I trust your lens.

Sonia (11:35)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Roberta (11:44)
not just because they're very complimentary, but because you, I do think you know me. Like you've known me for very long time and so I do think that you have seen all sides of me and I appreciate that. It's certain things in specifically what pieces of what you said that I questioned about myself through the years and so it's very good to hear that you see those things as strengths and lovable.

Sonia (11:50)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Roberta (12:11)
So I will say this to our listeners. I think this is a good exercise. I think the things that you may value in your friends, they might not know that those specific things are valued and I would challenge you to share those things.

Sonia (12:25)
my gosh, how often do you share why you are friends with somebody?

Roberta (12:29)
sometimes if I in a sentimental mood, I'll just text someone or like call someone and be like, I really love this about you. And they probably think I'm a weirdo or like some woo-woo person, but like, yeah, I think we should do that. We should do it often.

Sonia (12:42)
Yeah, I feel like we need more of that, especially now. I'm just like, we need more of that. Look, we just try, everybody's just trying to exist in this world. I know I don't do that enough. I know I don't.

Roberta (12:47)
Yes.

Okay, so okay, let's get into the dynamics of friendships and adulthood specifically. So in your opinion, you just kind of spoke to it a little bit, but what makes a good friend and how has that changed for you as you've grown and are growing?

Sonia (13:00)
Yeah.

Yeah.

What do I value in a friendship? So, I think for me, trust and honesty are always at the top of the list. number one, because those are the things that I value within myself. being honest with myself and, and just being a trustworthy person. I don't think you could have a friendship without it. Number one.

I think I value people or I think when a person gets you, right? When somebody gets you and they know you, that's comforting. When you can be yourself, yeah, a hundred percent.

Roberta (13:45)
Yeah, when you can be yourself and not be afraid.

Sonia (13:49)
And I think that with along with that, I'll say that that's how I know I'm your, if I consider you a friend, when I can rest in that and, I can take some of my filter away. Not all of it, but some of it, I could take some of that away. I do keep, you know, I don't say exactly what comes to my mind every time I try to filter it a little bit. No, I shouldn't.

Roberta (14:10)
You should. okay. You gonna hurt people's feelings

out here?

Sonia (14:15)
Because everybody's not the same.

I know what I can say, like not that I'm being dishonest, but I know how to say certain things to certain people. So the other thing is somebody that challenges me, right? I seem like a person that I don't accept challenge, but I do welcome people telling me things about myself that I can ponder on and think about.

Roberta (14:23)
Right.

Okay.

I've seen you do that. You are really thoughtful about information that people give you, whether that's about yourself or whatever. You're a very thoughtful person. Yeah.

Sonia (14:45)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah,

And then look, two things, you gotta laugh. If you gon' be friends with me, I gotta laugh, we gotta laugh. If we ain't laughing, you're boring, I can't, we can't do it.

Roberta (14:59)
Right,

and have like a similar sense of humor. Because I can be silly, I can be corny. I know a lot of my friends will say I'm corny. It's fine. As long as you're entertained and amused, I'm good. all the time. I love a good pun. And I will share a pun, anyway.

Sonia (15:02)
Yes.

If Roberta will send, the corny joke, you'd be like,

And then just being a good genuine person. Like I don't care what you're like on the outside. You could be ratchet, you could be nerdy, you could be whatever. But as long as you a good person in your heart, and I know that, we good. So.

Roberta (15:32)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

I think for me, what I would consider a friend has changed over the years. I think definitely when I was divorced, so like 30 and up a little bit, I found value in people who had like-minded interests and wanted to go out and hang out and do things. And it was very transactional.

Sonia (15:41)
Mm-hmm.

Roberta (15:56)
It was just all about we meet up, we have fun, and then we'll go to our respective places and we don't really talk or connect outside that. And as I've gotten older, I mean, I do value having common interests with people and doing things together, but I value more relating and having, you know, deeper conversations, being vulnerable, the one thing that I've leaned into in the last few years is my,

Sonia (16:00)
Yeah. Hmm.

Roberta (16:20)
want to be there for other people. I don't think I did that a lot in friendships before.

Sonia (16:24)
Mm-hmm.

why do you feel that way? what kept you from being there for other people? And why do you feel that way?

Roberta (16:33)
Oof. I mean, that's a deep one. That's a lot to unpack there. I would say a part of it is because I didn't necessarily want people there for me. Like, didn't necessarily want to be seen fully, and so therefore that's how I interacted with other people.

Sonia (16:43)
Mm-hmm.

Roberta (16:47)
And also, like, I didn't really necessarily have the capacity, both emotionally and, you know, there was a point in time in my 30s where I was really, really into my career and that took up a lot of my time. And so anything outside of that was pretty surface level. So, yeah, I think. then another reason why I'm leaning into more connection now for pragmatic reasons. I mean, as I look to the next like 20 or 30 years, I really am putting in.

Sonia (16:59)
Yeah.

Roberta (17:13)
effort into building a community. Like I don't have siblings, I don't have children. And so I'm starting to think about, okay, well, who am I going to spend my time with when I'm like 60, 70, 80 years old? And what is that going to look like? And let me start investing in putting energy into that now.

Sonia (17:15)
Mm.

Yeah.

I mean, it's good to think about it that way because, look at this age and thirties and your forties, I mean, there is so much to focus on, at least from my perspective, just having, you know, so many distractions with work and family, you know, sometimes friendships take a backseat, but similar to the way that I approach my marriage.

I feel like that too. feel like who am I going to hang out with? Not when I'm 60, 70, you know, just later in years, but also when my kids leave. Like I never want to just disregard everybody until my kids are out of the house. That's not a way to live. Currently, that's not a way to live in this present life. And it's also, it doesn't set you up well for the future after your kids leave.

Roberta (18:04)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Sonia (18:23)
And I approached my marriage the same way. I'm like, look, I know we got these kids, but I don't want to talk about them all the time. so I think the way that...

Roberta (18:31)
Right

Sonia (18:34)
Going back to your second question about how has friendship changed for me? I think for me I have learned to not put so much pressure on my friendships because of everything that we just discussed like I know I just said connection. It's very important. It is but with that I think that grace is important in friendships because Everybody's going through different things and so people show up

Roberta (18:47)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Sonia (19:01)
within their friendships the best they know how.

And I just learned to give people more grace. So if they ain't calling me back, if they don't text me back, I really try not to take that personally. I try not to make up stories about what they're doing and why they didn't text me back or why they left or, why they didn't go this place with me or. So I just try to be less, centering myself and just be like, okay, you know,

Roberta (19:22)
Yeah. Yep.

Sonia (19:30)
maybe they got something going on, until I know, different, right? Until you hear from them. So I would say that's how I've changed. And it just frees me up to be able to enjoy their friendships when they do come back around, when they do circle back. I don't wanna hold on to any bad feelings about something that could be small and something I don't know about.

Roberta (19:42)
Yeah.

Okay.

Sonia (19:54)
I would say

that. And I guess the other thing I would say about my friendships, what has changed for me, going back to your point about the fact that I'm honest with my friends and I'm a bit of a bit of a know it all.

Roberta (20:08)
my gosh.

Sonia (20:09)
I feel like

I, no, I'm just kidding. No, because I, you know, there's a part of me that thinks that about myself, I'm trying to like check myself. and you don't know it all, You know a lot. You don't know it all, but I think there's comes a point in time where, advice to your friends, you just learn to just accept that.

You know what? They ain't gotta take my advice. They don't have to do everything that I do. you don't even have to listen to my advice. That's a big one. Cause I think people get mad when you be like, I told that girl, don't date that man. And she's still dating him.

Roberta (20:34)
Hmm, mm-hmm.

Wait, what was that book

that you were reading recently about let them? Yeah. Yes.

Sonia (20:49)
Yes. Let them by Mel, Mel Robbins, the podcaster.

What is she a life coach? I don't even know what she does. She show up on my feed a lot though. Yes.

Roberta (20:55)
I I don't even know, all the things, exactly. Influencer, who knows? But she did write a book. I

haven't read it, but this sounds very much like what you were talking about when we were talking about the, it's how I live my life. It's just like, people are gonna do what they're gonna do and don't let that stress you out. And so you give advice and you let them take it or not take it.

Sonia (21:13)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

You know

what? Yeah. I, first of all, I read that book out of curiosity. I am not, I think for me, one of the things that I've been working on for years is, the level of control that I have. and so I have this thing, this,

thing where I feel like I can bend the earth to my will. Meaning, I have control over my life, right? To a certain extent. I don't have control over other people. And I think that that book was interesting to me because it's like...

Roberta (21:42)
Yeah.

Sonia (21:50)
Yeah, let them. Sure. That's easy to say. Let them, let them. And I'm like, well, how do you do that when you're close to people? Because I can let somebody I ain't close to all day, let them go on, go ahead, go on and do it. I don't care. But when you're thinking about people you're in close relationship with that you care about, that's very, to me, that's very hard to do. It's very hard to say.

Roberta (22:12)
Right. And especially when their behavior

or whatever they do or don't do impacts you directly, it's very hard to let them.

Sonia (22:17)
Yeah.

Yeah. you saying let them, that has reverberations that can blow back on you in a lot of, in a lot of ways. And I was just curious. Cause she always spoke about the let them part, but she never spoke about How do you not let that affect you?

And so that's why I read the book because I was like there got to be more to it and it was you know she has this whole thing about Let me right you still let them Do what they got to do, but you still have the control or the ability to Direct your own actions

And that may be have a conversation, set boundaries. I think the onus is on you. The way you let me, it's how she described it, is taking responsibilities for your actions and what you will and will not accept.

Roberta (23:04)
And that's the part that I have lived my life by probably to a fault Because yeah, I I have agency over what I can do and like what's going to impact me and I will pivot quickly if I see something that you're doing over there

and it impacts me in a way that I don't want to, I will leave the situation or do whatever. And so I set my life up in such a way that I have options no matter what somebody decides to do around me.

Sonia (23:32)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. I think, and I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum. Like when I care about somebody, I'm like, dang, one of the things that I love about friends is supporting my friends, being there for my friends. And when you see, and sometimes what friends do is they help you see things outside of yourself. That you...

Roberta (23:37)
Yeah.

Sonia (23:54)
And when you're in it, you can't see it and they see it. And it's very difficult to be, to see something that they don't see. And so the thing that I'm learning about my friendships is I have to be, I have to be patient and allow for them to come to a point of clarity on their own. And there's nothing I can do to rush that.

Roberta (23:56)
Right, yes.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's so hard. There's nothing you can do.

Sonia (24:18)
and I have this rule and with my, my friends, will never tell my friends to break up with somebody or divorce somebody. And it's, it is be so obvious that they should, but you ain't gonna get that from me because I feel like that's a decision you gotta make. now what I will do.

Roberta (24:26)
Mmm... Mm-hmm.

Ha ha ha!

Sonia (24:42)
is point out the breadcrumbs. this is what he seems to be telling you. Don't seem like it mirrors what you want, but I won't say you gotta do it. the other thing is they get back together and then here you are. Talk about you should have broke up with him. You ain't like him no way.

Roberta (24:44)
Yeah.

Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Right.

like whatever advice you give like that is coming through the lens of what you would do. I mean, I understand that like, yes, I know you personally, so I know that when you give advice, you are as best of your ability putting yourself in other person's shoes. But a lot of times when people, anybody gives advice, it's like through their own lens. So it's all of those things. But at the end of the day, control the things you can control. Let go and accept the things you can't.

Sonia (25:07)
Yes.

It's true.

Roberta (25:27)
And when it comes to interacting with someone that you love and care for, I think the important thing is to lead with that care and be like, I really care about you and you don't seem to be happy. X, Y, Z. And then outside of that, let it go. Let it go. Okay, let's get back on track here. So.

Sonia (25:36)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Right.

Let it go. I'm still, the Lord is still working on me.

All right, let's go.

Roberta (25:55)
Let's talk about the dynamic of best friends. And so I know when this originally came up and you and I were talking about it, I was like, yeah, I don't think I really have a best friend. I'll never have a best friend. And then I really, had to think about it to be honest with you.

Sonia (26:13)
Wait, you gotta think about your best friend.

Roberta (26:15)
Yeah,

because I was just like, I don't have like a singular person. The way I would define a best friend or bestie is like that one person that knows everything about me and that I can absolutely rely on. And they're the exact same, you know, it's a perfect match. And they think of me the same way. And I don't, that's not, I just don't, haven't seen that happen organically in my life. But then there were some times when it was, but it was more so when I was younger.

Sonia (26:19)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Roberta (26:42)
Definitely when I was younger. But for me, how that happened was the closeness and the connection came out of adversity. Like we had some sort of interaction, some sort of negative thing, and because we were able to overcome it together, that brought us closer.

Sonia (26:49)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

so do you have a best friend? can you identify that now or do you still relate with that best friend label or no? Okay. Yeah.

Roberta (27:09)
No, not as an adult. Like I

have several friends that I'm very close to where I feel like I could rely on them and they could rely on me and I feel like the friendship is very solid. I don't know if I would call it a best friend. Because to me again, that implies that I'm putting that friendship over another friendship and I value them very differently, but I hold them all very dear to me.

Sonia (27:19)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

correct.

Mm-hmm.

I agree with you. I feel like when I look at friendships, that's one thing that's changed since I was younger. I think when we're younger, going all the way back to when you had your first best friend. My first best friend was my friend Myranda She's my oldest friend. I've known her since kindergarten. If you know me, you know her. We've been friends for a very long time, but I think the way...

When you're younger, your best friend is exactly how you described it. Y'all got similar interests. Y'all know all each other's secrets. That's your one person. And they get everything about you. As I've grown older and as I start to realize like the types of friends that I have in my life that I agree with you, I don't feel like I need to put as much pressure on that best friend title as I did when I was younger because I have multiple

Roberta (28:07)
Exactly.

Great.

Sonia (28:29)
best friends and they all are different and they, we have different and special relationships and you share things that maybe you haven't shared with somebody else just because of their level of understanding of, or where they are in the moment or what you experienced together. So I agree.

I don't put as much emphasis on the best friend title. But I think the other thing for me, and I think what I've realized about myself is I don't have a ton of friends. I'm not the type of person who has 50 friends or 100 friends.

because I'm very careful about who I call my friends. And I just realized that about myself. If I call you my friend, then I really mean it. That means something to me. And the way I show up in friendships, I don't have the capacity to do that for 50, 100 people. I just don't have the capacity for it. And so the friends that I have, I nurture them.

Roberta (29:17)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Right.

Sonia (29:38)
and I keep them close and they're important to me.

And I think it's good to have multiple if you can. If you found that one person and that's your person, that's good. But you shouldn't also feel bad if you have multiple.

Roberta (29:50)
Right, right. if you have multiple, then honestly, I really don't, if you have multiple friendships, close connections, which is great in this world, I don't know if you can label that best friend. Like when I think of best friend, I think of the quintessential Oprah and Gayle besties taking a road trip across the country kind of dynamic. Like I don't have that.

Sonia (30:08)
Yes.

Yeah. Now, Oprah and Gayle, they probably are. Is there a duo, a best friend duo, celebrity duo that are more iconic than Gayle and Oprah?

Roberta (30:25)
Not like grown people. I'm sure there's like young people.

Sonia (30:30)
I don't

know two celebrity best friends that you could call out. You're like, yeah, they best friends. Maybe Beyonce and, but they're in a group, so that don't really count. Beyonce and Kelly, and I don't even know how tight they are.

Roberta (30:36)
No.

I guess, but see, I don't even, right, I don't need,

ever since they got married and got their own families, they didn't really, you know, give bestie vibes.

Sonia (30:48)
True.

Okay, so speaking of Gayle and Oprah, there's this clip that's been going around for a while, because I think she said it a long time ago, and then I think she restated it in an interview about friendships. So I want to play that clip for you. Have you heard it? Okay, so this will be your first time

Roberta (31:07)
I have not.

Okay.

Sonia (31:38)
How you feel about that, Roberta?

Roberta (31:39)
Okay.

So

I agree, but with a caveat. So I do agree it's really hard to be genuine friends with someone who is jealous of you. There's always going to be an air or layer of competition, like they're going to feel like they're in competition with you. And that's not a good healthy dynamic for any kind of friendship. Now, I do think that

Sonia (31:47)
Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Roberta (32:10)
It's problematic if the jealousy or the envy is unspoken. So if it's like a secret kind of seething thing, that's not gonna work. But like if you're upfront, if you have that kind of dynamic, if you're truly friends and you're able to be vulnerable enough in yourself and say, you know what, I'm really jealous of this thing, of this relationship, of this job or whatever it is and be honest with the other person, then I think there's space. Honestly, and if the person

Sonia (32:22)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Roberta (32:40)
can receive it well and with love, I think it can work. And honestly, I think it could like help the friendship, not help it, but like better it, improve it.

Sonia (32:41)
Yeah.

Mmm.

Yeah,

I agree. And you know, know, love Oprah, okay? Gayle she came with the package. Now, Oprah is my girl, but this clip did give me pause because...

Roberta (32:53)
Over was like, nah, cut it. Cut it, girl, cut it. Yeah, yeah.

Sonia (33:03)
I was like, I don't know if I a hundred percent agree. So I do know. So obviously if somebody has jealousy and they express that jealousy, they express it and it comes out in their behavior towards you. comes out in some sort of malicious, you know, evil way. Then of course you can't be friends with that person. But I also believe that jealousy is a feeling like all feelings and that

Roberta (33:05)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Sonia (33:32)
It is, and maybe there's some Mother Teresa's out there. Maybe, I don't even know if Mother Teresa was jealous. She might've been. She human. And so I think that I was like, ooh, I hope people don't think that if you feel jealousy that you are a bad person. Because the feeling of, to me, the feeling of jealousy.

Roberta (33:39)
I'm sure she was, she's human!

Sonia (33:56)
It's not necessarily bad how you act on it is right? I feel like jealousy can be one of those things where you, where it's a signal to yourself. Like what is it about this thing that's coming up for you? Do you want something different out of your life? Do you need to do something different? What is it telling you?

Roberta (34:15)
Right.

Sonia (34:18)
Now, when it comes to, I don't think you got to share that either. I don't think you have to share it, but I think you have to know enough about yourself to separate, I jealous? I know there's a difference between jealousy and envy, but one of them is like, I don't have it and I don't want you to have it. That's a problem. Like if you don't want me to have it, but it's like, I'm happy you have it and I want you to have it and I want more of that. Is that jealousy? And I want to have that too.

Roberta (34:25)
Right, have a self-awareness, yeah.

Right. That is the problem. Right.

think that, yeah, that is more envy. It's just like, I see this thing and I'm just gonna use an example. You have this beautiful marriage and I'm over here single and lonely. Jealousy to me would be, you know...

Sonia (34:46)
Okay, I don't

Mm-hmm.

Roberta (35:00)
Thinking, talking bad to other people, right? Not sharing that with the person. Jealousy would be trying to take that person away from spending time with their husband. No, you can spend time with me, you're my bestie. know what I mean? that kind of, like those are, look, listen, it happens. Envy, I think, is more on the, I wish I had that. I see that and I wish I had it. I'm happy that you have that.

Sonia (35:03)
right. Yeah.

Yeah.

Eww, no. No, just kidding. It does.

Roberta (35:29)
And I'm happy that you're an example of what I hope to have one day.

Sonia (35:35)
So the jealousy is

acting on it more and the envy is like, hmm.

Roberta (35:38)
Jealousy is holding

onto, jealousy is letting a resentment brew. And envy is just wanting it so much for yourself.

Sonia (35:44)
Yeah, okay. So.

Yeah, well, whatever it is, I feel like it's a signal to you and you need to work that thing out, like either with yourself or with your therapist. Yes.

Roberta (35:57)
Definitely with yourself, yes. Work it out

with yourself, but then also when it comes to the dynamic of the friendship, I think work on it yourself, but then also bring that to the friend. I think, yeah.

Sonia (36:03)
Yeah.

Yeah, well here's my thing

though. Now the thing about Oprah and Gayle, I don't think it's always been like this, but I feel like it's balanced itself out. Now Oprah got bank. Now Gayle has bank too. She got baby bank, but she got bank too.

Roberta (36:20)
Right.

Sonia (36:24)
So, but

I feel like when you're wealthy, there is, then they're both the level of wealthy where I feel like it doesn't matter. And Gayle can pay for Oprah to go somewhere. Oprah can pay for Gayle to go to space or whatever. No, I don't think that was always the case. And so that was my question. Can you have a friendship where the dynamic is so imbalanced?

Roberta (36:27)
Yeah, that's a hot look.

Maybe now? I don't think that was always a dynamic. Yeah.

Right, I don't know. I don't know. They always talk about like in relationships, like intimate relationships be equally yoked. I don't know if there's a version of that that's kind of for friendships and if that's something to aspire to. I don't know.

Sonia (37:03)
you just have to be really secure in yourself and really secure. And that other person has to be secure in themselves. And honestly, you have to have something real and probably something that was established.

Roberta (37:08)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Sonia (37:21)
maybe well before that imbalance was so great.

Roberta (37:24)
Yeah, the

imbalance was off. Yeah, I don't know. Honestly, this is something that I want to hear from listeners. So if you're listening, comment. I know some people have said, I wish I can join in the conversation. Please join in the conversation. I know it's after the fact, but this is something we can definitely pick up in comments and on social.

Sonia (37:33)
They do say that. Yeah.

Cause Oprah was like, look girl, I'm a billionaire. I'm gonna need you to step it up.

Go on on CBS. You could be the editor of my magazine. Something child. I need you to step it up. No, I'm just kidding.

Roberta (37:49)
Well, right, right.

So if there is an imbalance, like, yeah, are you just watching your friend, you know, from up here or are you helping her grow too?

Sonia (37:56)
Yeah. Oprah. I still love Oprah. She's still my girl. She's still my girl. Yeah, yeah.

Roberta (38:01)
Yeah, all that is rich people problems. I don't have those problems.

OK, so all right. All that being said, the question for you is do you consider yourself a good friend now as an adult and in the space that you're in now? And how do you keep your friends?

Sonia (38:16)
Mm-hmm.

I do feel like I'm a good friend. Yeah, I think. Am I a good friend, Roberta?

Roberta (38:25)
Don't doubt yourself, you are good friend.

Sonia (38:26)
I'm just kidding. I

feel like I'm a good friend. And what makes me a good friend? I don't know. think, just being interested in another person's life, what they're going through. And look, this is the thing. Being in this stage of life, like being in, there are a lot of changes that are happening.

outside of ourselves. we are raising, you're either raising kids and that comes with its own set of things you have to deal with. But then it's like, got aging parents and your parents are sick and your parents or your parents have passed away. You're being a caregiver. There's changes in career. There's changes in marriages. I think for me, what I, what I would say is, I try to show up for my friends to be there for them in those moments.

Roberta (39:00)
Yeah.

Sonia (39:14)
But as we get older, it's hard to figure out how to show up. It's hard to figure out what to say to somebody who has been caring for their parent who has some, you know, who has dementia. And it's a long road. And sometimes I, I'm like, dang, I could be a better friend. I think for me, it's just the checking in like, Hey, I'm just checking on you.

Roberta (39:18)
Yes, yeah, that part.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Sonia (39:39)
I try to do that because honestly sometimes that's the only thing I know to do. Like to say, how are you doing? Like, no, how are you doing for real? do you need anything? It was just probably a terrible question to ask somebody going through something. Let me ask you, think of some things that you need and then tell me. I want to be the type of friend who knows and shows up with it, but my mind, I'll be struggling.

Roberta (39:43)
Right.

Right, right, right.

Yeah, no, that is my exact problem that I feel like as far as me being a good friend or the barrier hurdle. and it's something that I've, it's been brought into my awareness and consciousness over the last, I would say maybe two years. And I've actively tried to put effort and energy into cultivating my friendships. But that part of trying to anticipate, trying to have a connection that

doesn't necessitate me going to them and be like, what do you need? What do you need? What do you need? It's kind of that I know this person and I can show up. And even if it might not be spot on, there's a certain dynamic and comfort level where they can be honest with me and feel like they can rely on me to show up however they need in that moment, you know? And also not even like, we've been talking in the context of negative things, but even in good things and how to celebrate you know what I mean?

Sonia (40:30)
Yeah, yeah.

Roberta (40:53)
with the busyness of life, I've failed to connect with the friends in my life the way I want to. And so how that shows up lately is just a text and like, I miss you, what's going on? We should get together soon. With differing levels of follow up. But also, in my mind at one o'clock in the morning when I think about it, I really wanna text this person and being like, what's going really well? let's just go out and celebrate and whatever that means, have a drink, have a coffee and just talk about the stuff that's going.

Sonia (40:59)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Roberta (41:21)
really good in your life and just take a minute. I wanna be that friend. And it's just, I don't know what the barriers are other than you know, the normal things of time and whatever, but when I say that, that sounds so superficial. Like time, that's what's getting in your way of being a good friend. make time, you know.

Sonia (41:22)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah,

it does until you have a day like we both said we had today. Yes. I'm like, oh, we can't even make time to do this podcast. Right. Why are you drinking your dark and stormy wine? No, but I do think having a.

Roberta (41:41)
Girl,

Hey, I didn't make time to eat. What are you talking about?

This is my dinner.

Sonia (41:58)
friendship, having a good friendship, close friendship takes intentionality. Like you have to be intentional. And I feel like one of the things that I really try to do with my friends is support them in whatever they're doing. I happen to have a lot of entrepreneurial friends. I don't know why, because I'm not that way. but I, you're right. You're right. Thanks.

Roberta (42:03)
Yeah.

I'm a hello, grown and growing, this is an entrepreneur. Okay.

Sonia (42:27)
But I think my love language is showing up to support them, supporting their businesses, talking about, you know, making sure that I show up, you know, buy from them or go to their thing or, you know, tell them how proud I am. that's so great. Big them up.

Roberta (42:31)
Yeah.

Yes. Yes.

Sonia (42:44)
I feel like that's, that's kind of how I try to slow support. like you, I lack in the timing. I don't think that we are unique in that. Like I, read this study from this friendship expert guy at the Colorado state university. And he did the study last year talking, talking to Americans about friendship. And what he said was most Americans,

Roberta (42:52)
Yeah.

Sonia (43:07)
90 % of people or something like that say they have a close friend like at least one and then 58 % have five or more but the problem is they don't feel close to those friends like they want to feel closer so I think when we think about the loneliness epidemic that's in this country that's why because we because we have these friends but we don't either have the time or

Roberta (43:19)
Yeah.

Sonia (43:33)
to feel closeness with them. And that's what they said the biggest challenge for people was finding the time.

Roberta (43:33)
Yeah.

Well, yeah, mean... Yes.

Sonia (43:42)
Is that because, wait, but

why? Okay, so obviously the busyness of life. So when you think about the busyness of life, but then you think about like social media, these group chats, those kind of things. I think they artificially make us feel like we know what's going on in each other's lives without actually checking in with them. So it gives you this false sense of,

Roberta (43:49)
Yeah.

Yes.

Sonia (44:09)
not closeness, but this false sense of, know what's going on with that person and they seem to be doing all right. Yeah.

Roberta (44:14)
So I don't need to actually check in. So okay, so yes and no. I will say

yes, that's the case with social media because we're not actually seeing like into people's lives. We're seeing like, you know, the highlights exactly. Right, which is better than nothing in lot of cases. But I will say that like the group chats and the text chats, I think those count. I do think those counts. I think those are like valid check-ins.

Sonia (44:20)
Yeah, for sure.

curated versions of what they want you to see.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Roberta (44:42)
least the group chats that I'm in, when someone reaches out and pings, sometimes that will lead to a virtual call if we're all in different places or an actual in-person get together. I think those are kind of the threads. I think group chats, 2025 is the new version of like, you know.

Sonia (44:53)
Mm-hmm.

think so. If you've chosen wisely, I'm very particular about my group chats. Because look, I was just figuring out how to get out of a group chat yesterday. It gotta be like, I don't like group chats where there's 20 people. Get out of there. I don't know you. Five people? Yeah.

Roberta (45:09)
Yes, yes.

Yeah.

Oh, absolutely not. Like, honestly, I think like five max.

Five people.

Sonia (45:27)
Like why am I in here with 20 people? I don't even if your number is not in my phone I don't care and then they'd be like this is Terry. This is

Roberta (45:29)
Right, no.

Absolutely not. Wait, you're

on group chats with people that's not on your phone? Why? girl, get out. Get out. No, no, no. Leave, leave, leave. Like look, this is one of them times of like, them like, let them carry on that conversation without you because why? Girl, get the recap later. Like what?

Sonia (45:36)
Yes! Because people put me in there!

I want to, but one of them is family. And I'm like...

I know, I was, look, yesterday I was

hovering over that delete and block button. Real, I'm like, well it automatically, like, no, because you know Apple and Android don't talk, and so sometimes you could put yourself in a group, and sometimes you can leave, like if everybody's an Apple person, you can leave that group chat and be fine.

Roberta (45:58)
I don't know about block, don't even gotta block them. But like, get out of that loop.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Sonia (46:16)
Android, it's deleted, trust me, I was in there yesterday.

Roberta (46:18)
Yeah.

Anyway, technology aside, we need to curate our friendships better over text. I do think that that like, you know, those groups could be a good and healthy dynamic, not a replacement, but a good supplement.

Sonia (46:30)
Yeah.

They are, but sometimes I, look, I

feel like some of my group chats, we don't, it's hard to get out the group chat. where you're friends with these people, but the same thing that happens on social media, but to a more, in a more private space, you can still over rely on that group chat. Cause I have, I have a couple of group chats that I'm in and I love to be in them, but I don't see them like, we, we can't get out the group chat to save our lives.

Roberta (46:50)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Well, yeah, you got to be intentional about do your check-ins, do your catch-ups, but then make it something happen in person and on a zoom. you got to make it also. Side note, you know what my, one of my big fears is about that? I'm so afraid that one of the group chats I'm in, it's okay. So the group chat that I'm in with you, right? And Emmanuel and Yadira, do y'all have a side chat without me and y'all talk about me?

Sonia (47:06)
like

What?

Sometimes, no I'm just kidding. It's not about you though. Look, no I have side chats with you. What do mean? We have side chats.

Roberta (47:37)
But why am I not in it?

Yeah, we

have one on one, it's just me and you, but it's not like the rest of the group. I'm talking about like, it's like you and Emmanuel and Yadira and not me. okay. No, yeah, mean that is, yeah, that's fine.

Sonia (47:49)
no, it's not that. No.

No, no, no, no, no, we don't have that. No, we don't have that. I thought you meant one-on-one, like.

I

do have a group chat and I do, it is like that. We go off to the side.

Roberta (48:06)
First of all,

I could never do that because I would be the person that accidentally send something in the whole chat and not with the one that's excluding the one person. See, no, I can't.

Sonia (48:13)
I've done that before. Please.

I've done that. God. But yeah, sometimes, you know, sometimes you got to, you know, say something to the small group of people that you, sometimes you do. God. Here we go. Here we go. Is that gossip? Is that gossip? You know, I'm, look, I might go lie and say I don't.

Roberta (48:25)
No you don't. That's gossip. Anyway, okay.

Sonia (48:40)
They're driving to have her gossip. I'm not going to say that, but sometimes you need a gut check. Like, should I say this to the group or no? And then you say, yeah, sometimes no, because everybody, even though we're all friends, everybody don't have the same temperament or level of understanding. There's a lot that can be misconstrued over texts. And sometimes you need a gut check about that.

Roberta (48:48)
Really? I say it or not say it. Like, I don't need a side filter.

Okay, fine. All right, okay, this is what we're

gonna do with this, because we need to like wrap it We're gonna take this to the chat, to the comments, and ask people, what is y'all's group chat dynamic? how is that, how do you manage your friendships around the group chat?

Sonia (49:10)
Mm-hmm.

Right, all right, fine, because I feel like it's fine to take some things off the chat and then bring it back to the chat sometimes. So we talked a lot about how different friendships or how life changes can impact your friendships, Like divorce and I think one of the biggest dynamics with us is the kids and no kids thing.

Roberta (49:35)
Yes.

Yes.

Sonia (49:44)
We, you know, I have two kids, you have no kids. And, you know, I feel like when you think about friendships and how they change, feel like that's probably the big, after relationships, right? Cause relationships are the first test. you get a, are you one of those friends, you get a boyfriend and all of sudden your friends is nowhere, you don't have friends no more?

Roberta (50:00)
Yeah.

think I am that probably a better question for my friends but I try to balance it is not as much time but you gotta yeah yeah

Sonia (50:18)
balance it out. But then

there comes the friendship part. So, you know, you and I, I would say we're close friends, right? We live within an hour of each other. I'm gonna say it this way. We don't see each other as much as I would like to see each other. Because we have just very different lives.

Roberta (50:23)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

same.

Yeah.

Sonia (50:42)
And you know, when it comes to, do you feel like it's hard to, as a single person, is it hard to keep friends with people who are married and have kids?

Roberta (50:54)
Yes, I will

say the hardest outside of time and all that, the busyness of life, the main reason why my friendships falter or we go through kind of valleys is for that, not so much marriages, but kids. I've had several friendships, I wouldn't say it necessarily end, but well, mean, hell, you and I, like there was a.

Sonia (51:11)
Mm-hmm.

Roberta (51:19)
period when you, I'd say you know, early 30s when you had your two kids where we didn't talk regularly at all. But we had the kind of dynamic where we could pick up years later and be fine. But I've had friendships that did not recover like that. So I will say kids is like the biggest thing.

Sonia (51:35)
Mm-hmm.

Why didn't they recover? Was it you or them or a little bit of both? Why didn't those friendships recover?

Roberta (51:43)
mean, I'll take accountability

in there. I mean, I'm sure it was a little bit of both, but I will say from my observation, because this has happened more than once, I would say that what happened was, when the new parent, the, know, so I'm talking about in the context of like my friend being the mom and there's new, there's play dates and there's new friend groups based on the parenting friend groups or however y'all do it. You can say, I'm not bitter.

Sonia (51:57)
Yeah.

Roberta (52:08)
But those new friendships, they pick up and they take up the space in your life and the engagement and everything. so our friendship didn't recover. And also it's because, they just have different priorities and different activities in their life. so whereas I still may be going to the different concerts or clubs or whatever else, bars.

they don't do that. And I think, again, this is just my experience and my observation, because honestly, we never really talked about it for the people that it applies to. I think there's a little bit of envy in there that I do have the time to go to the bars and the concerts and the clubs or whatever, and they don't. And so that creates more distance.

Sonia (52:35)
Mm-hmm.

So how do you know it's

envy? Based on what? What are they saying?

Roberta (52:53)
like little passive aggressive comments, like, you're still doing that. I didn't know they were still, you know, people still hanging out there. it's just subtle stuff like that. Right. So yeah, it's just little subtle things like that. And so I, my reaction, I mean, I didn't acknowledge those kinds of things or I didn't say that what do mean by that? You know, I just didn't engage that.

Sonia (53:00)
my gosh. know, because you with your kids. I don't know what we doing over here. No,

I can see that happening

though. I can see the what's the one like, must be nice. it must be nice. I think that it's part judgy and part wistfulness. I do feel like there is a part of, well, first of all, let me just say that people build, okay, people build up.

Roberta (53:18)
Yeah.

Yes, yes, that part. I got that a lot.

yes.

Anytime you start a sentence with first of all.

Sonia (53:41)
I think there comes a point in your marriage family development where you be like, well, you know what? This ain't all it's cracked up to be. And I feel like some of that can come out as, because they built it up like marriage is this thing you aspire to and it's gonna be so awesome. So awesome. They need to be the center of your world and your universe. And so I do think there is some...

Roberta (53:46)
Yeah.

Mmm.

Children are the best things in the world, the greatest gifts from God.

Yeah.

Sonia (54:07)
societal things at play that allows women to judge other women about their lifestyles similar to like women judging other women, you know, because they work versus stay at home. And it's like, look, it's whatever you decide to do. But...

Roberta (54:12)
Yeah.

Sonia (54:24)
Yeah, think I can totally see that. I'm like, have I said that? I probably thought, must be nice. But it's probably coming from a place where it must be nice because I can't do it, type of place. But it is hard. can't say, speaking for the moms out there, especially when your kids are small, right? When they're depending on you for everything in life, it is hard to be like,

Roberta (54:37)
Right.

Sonia (54:54)
let's, you know, it's hard to find times for friends, right? It's hard to do that. And so it's easier to have a play date because you just like go on and play on them swings and then we can sit up here and talk, right?

Roberta (54:59)
Yeah.

Right, no, two birds, one stone, I get it.

Sonia (55:08)
at the, and I think that's very valuable at certain points in your life. And then your kids start to get a little bit more independence. Your friends start to have friends and then you don't need to hang out with them. Like I think I'm at the age where my kids don't need me to hang out with them. Like they can hang out on their own with their friends and I don't necessarily have to be there coordinating the things that they do. There's some independence. Where I find that there's a problem,

is when married women kind of center their kids above all else. And I think one of the best things that I learned from my marriage counselor when we were married and we had Hunter was a baby and you felt this pressure to do everything and be there or you're not a good mom and you need to be there and the dad can't do anything because he's a bumbling idiot. Like that's how they play it on TV. And she was like, look,

Did the kids die? Are they happy? Like, do you trust this man or no? And I really, like she said, it's a lot in therapy, but that one I took and I put it in my heart. And I was like, enough said. You said enough. Here's your dad, he is capable. But the problem with that is probably why we rekindled our friendship is because not all my friends are like that.

Roberta (56:04)
Alright.

All

I carried it with you.

Sonia (56:28)
There are very much, I'm not doing it, I need to do it. I need to carry the brunt of the raising the kids and the dads don't. I did not do that with Derrick And I made it.

Roberta (56:34)
Yeah.

Yeah. But also, and

also you were very fortunate in that you handed over, you had that trust and he picked it up. Like he's a really good dad. And then some people, some mothers, some fathers aren't like that.

Sonia (56:44)
He did. Yeah, he is.

Yeah,

they don't have that. I am very lucky that Derrick is a dad who likes being a dad, who likes being involved. And sometimes I'd be like, you too involved, like calm down, chill out. But yeah, I am lucky that, but look, not all women do that. And I wish, I wish, and I think people, get to that point eventually. Hopefully it's before your kids leave for college. But.

Roberta (57:05)
No.

Yeah. Break.

Sonia (57:15)
Kids don't have to be the center of your universe forever. You do need that time away. And you do need to nurture friendships with all of your friends, even you, because look, I don't wanna do what you do, Roberta, because you be out here in these streets, like from sunrise to sunset. Okay, maybe not sunrise, because you don't like to wake up early, but definitely from lunchtime to sunrise.

Roberta (57:40)
Catch me outside from about noon to midnight.

No.

Sonia (57:44)
Ain't nobody try to do all that. I remember

you just told me about your day. I was like, hell, where's the nap Roberta? Where is the nap? Where is the sitting? You was just out here in these streets. I said, mm-hmm, that's my friend. That's why she don't be inviting me nowhere. It's okay though.

Roberta (57:52)
Gotta get a good disco nap in.

Yes.

So, okay, so let's talk about this then. So have you ever had to end a friendship in adulthood?

Sonia (58:07)
I have never ended a friendship, but I definitely thought about ending a friendship early earlier, like a while ago, because I just felt like we talked about it, like all the things in life when you're.

Roberta (58:17)
Okay.

Sonia (58:22)
in two different spaces. One of the things that I really appreciated about the book Let Them was she talked about friendship, a whole chapter or two on friendships. And one of the things she talked about was the foundation of friendships. And she said the foundations are like proximity.

Inter timing like proximity how close you live to that friend Timing of your life meaning are we both married at the same time? Are we both divorced? Are you married and you're divorced? Are you working and I'm not are we both working in career women together like the timing and then energy are we both interested in the same thing?

Roberta (58:47)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Sonia (58:57)
And one of the things she said was, when one of those are off, then the friendship suffers, Friendships ebb and flow and they end and begin and whatever based on those three dynamics, which I thought was kind of brilliant. I'm like, that's true. And so we were at a point where one of those dynamics were off with us, right? And I was like, I don't know.

No, if this friendship has reached the end of its rope, then we just need to cut it, right? And I even practiced in my head how I would have this conversation. But at the end of the day, I decided not to have the conversation after reflecting because I felt like I had so much history with this person. And...

Roberta (59:24)
Yeah.

Sonia (59:39)
And the things that we were going through, felt like they weren't permanent. I feel like there will be a time when we can come together again and we can still be there for each other. But the dynamics of our relationship definitely changed. And our friendship changed and it looks different. And I'm okay with that. So I'm glad I did not do it. So have you?

Roberta (59:43)
Mmm.

Right.

Yeah.

have not, but I had someone end a friendship with me. Or maybe not, I know right? Maybe not end it, I ain't do nothing. Or maybe I won't say end, because we're still technically friends. Okay, let me just explain the situation. she came to me, I laugh now, but at the time I was really upset. So this was probably, this had to have been seven or eight years ago, because her kids are.

Sonia (1:00:04)
Dang. What you do?

okay.

Mm-hmm.

Roberta (1:00:28)
Anyway, my, actually, so my best friend from childhood, we are now adults, we live in the same city, and I would reach out to her and be like, hey, let's have lunch, let's go to Happy Hour, let's do this and do that. And so there was times of well, I'm busy, I can't do that, and do this, whatever. And so, but even though I realized that I was the main person reaching out, I still did it because I'm like,

Sonia (1:00:31)
Mm-hmm.

Roberta (1:00:53)
we've known each other forever and ever, it's fine, like don't take it as a slight, but she did come to me one day and said, I have room for three things in my life, and that is my marriage, my kids, and my job. And you don't fit in that. Right. And so.

Sonia (1:00:55)
Yeah.

You mean like me personally? Or just all your friends? She said it, she said it.

Roberta (1:01:17)
She

said it, she didn't say like, you Roberta, I don't have time for you. It wasn't that, it was just, it was like, yeah, I don't have time for a friendship, this friendship.

Sonia (1:01:28)
I respect it, I respect the honesty. But it also makes me sad. Because friendships are important. What were the three things? Her job, her family, and her husband? No.

Roberta (1:01:31)
Yes.

Yes, that is, is, yeah, yeah. her, her, basically

her marriage, her kids and her job. And in her, I mean, defense, I she had two kids that were under five at the time. She's an attorney, she has a very stressful job. And yeah, mean, marriage is a marriage, you know, it needs work.

Sonia (1:01:45)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Roberta (1:02:03)
And so I was hurt, I accepted it, but also I think a lot of that was because we had been friends for 20 some odd years. And not just friends like, like I see you and I see you. Like we were best friends. Like she was in my wedding, I was in her wedding. Like we had been close for a very, very long time. And so.

Sonia (1:02:07)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

That's a tough thing to say to somebody.

Roberta (1:02:25)
That's a tough thing to say.

it wasn't until honestly a couple years after that, that I acknowledged that part. I was like, I'm sure that was really hard for her to have to do. And to be honest with you, to this day, we've never talked about it. We're still in contact, but it's more like text check-ins, know, how's your parents, happy birthday, happy new year, you know.

Sonia (1:02:30)
Mm-hmm

So this

is the type of friend I am. I can't help it, I'm have to ask about it now. I was like, you know what? Wow, three things, really? I respect that, I get it, but you do know that, like I get where you are in your life, but I'm gonna, honestly, I'm gonna challenge my friend on that. if we friends, like you said, I'm gonna challenge you on that. I'm gonna be like,

Roberta (1:03:03)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Sonia (1:03:13)
If I haven't done anything specifically to you, then I'm gonna challenge you to think about that, yeah.

Roberta (1:03:19)
need more than that. No, I agree. For me, at the time,

at the time it was just, honestly, I went in my little turtle shell. I was just like, you know what, you don't want me? I don't want you, bye. It was just like, you know, and I was upset and I was just like, well fine, I don't wanna be your friend either. It was just all sorts of things that was on my end, which I retreated.

Sonia (1:03:33)
Yeah.

Yeah!

And I don't blame

you, because that's a hard thing to understand. And also to never address it, to never go back and say, I bet she didn't come back and say, because it's like, because what do you do with that information? Because that's what I would have been like, well, does that mean forever or no? Right? Obviously, you're telling me this because you feel some type of stress in your life.

Roberta (1:03:44)
It was a really hard thing to

Right.

Well now I got space now. Like no, was... Right.

forever and ever, right?

Right.

Sonia (1:04:06)
I feel like there's something else driving that and the easiest thing for you to do, it appears, is to cut off friendship. And is that the best thing? So I don't know, I would have been like, we need to talk about this more before. I mean, yeah.

Roberta (1:04:20)
Right, and I think we're both

knowing where she is, because again, we keep up with each other, so I know where she is in life now, and it's less stressful, or not as stressful, not the same stresses that she was in before. So I would be open to revisiting or just talking about it. A part of me, honestly, if I'm keeping it a buck, a year ago, I had the same sentiment, but I'm like, well, why should I go to her? She should come to me, she's the one who told me, does she know what I mean?

Sonia (1:04:32)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Yeah.

Roberta (1:04:47)
I'm over that by now, you know? And so it is okay, let's just maybe find a good time. And now it's just, for me, it's just a matter of the busyness and okay, because I know I can't jump.

Sonia (1:04:56)
and you can probably, if you brought

it up again, you could probably laugh about it and she'll probably be like, girl. Right,

Roberta (1:05:02)
Right, I'm sure, I'm sure. Because

again, I know her very well and I know her personality. And so I'm sure we could laugh about it now is just like, it's re-sparking or re-kindling that conversation. Yeah, I'm absolutely willing to do that. So yeah, I don't know if it was like an end all like what.

Sonia (1:05:13)
Mm-hmm.

Roberta (1:05:19)
Again, I feel like this taps into a little bit of my spiritual whatever, her and I are twin souls. no matter what she ain't going to wear, I ain't going to wear. So we can pick this up when we 80 or we can pick it up now. she's, she's an only child too. And I mean, even though she does have two kids, but also we, we would be the golden girls on the compound or whatever we trying to build. Yeah.

Sonia (1:05:20)
So.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, that's true. Not 80, dang.

Right, so I

do, ooh, I'm like battling, because I'm like ooh, two directions do I wanna take. I'm gonna quickly do this one, because the first one is ghosting. that's a thing now. first of all, I consider ghosting, somebody reaches out to you, you're developing some kind of relationship, somebody reaches out to you, and you don't.

Roberta (1:05:49)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

You just blatantly ignore them. Yeah. Right.

Sonia (1:06:04)
you just blatantly ignore it and don't ever text them back. That's how I've,

or I'm assuming it's text, but call back. Yeah. I don't feel like I've ever done that. Have you? I feel like you have. No, I'm just kidding.

Roberta (1:06:11)
Or whatever, yeah.

Not

for friendship. I have done it in dating. Oh Yeah. I try not to, honestly, even in dating, like even at the peak of my on-app dating whatever experience, I still tried not to. I still try to be communicative and say, I just don't think this is a match. But I have never been ghosted or ghosted someone on a friend level.

Sonia (1:06:21)
yeah. I mean, I can see it being done in dating. I ain't ever go, yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I don't think I have either. And the operative word is friend. I think a different, because there's not calling somebody up, but you know you're gonna get back with them, right? There's texts I definitely remember, but I blame that on perimenopause. Not that I was, because if I would look at a text, I would write a whole response, and then I would go about my, yes, go about my day. And then when I send them another text, I'm like, dang, I ain't never sent this text. my God, that's perimenopause. But.

Roberta (1:06:45)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You

Girl, and think I sent it.

Sonia (1:07:13)
I think what I have done is for friendships that I don't see a future with, I have let those friendships trail off. We have established, we're on the pathway to friendship, like we're on acquaintances, maybe a little closer than acquaintances. I have let those friendships fall off.

Roberta (1:07:30)
Yeah. Yeah.

Sonia (1:07:37)
Hopefully naturally, right? Or sometimes without even realizing that I have. Because there's something in the friendship that I don't want to develop. There's something in the relationship that I don't want to deepen. So I just let them go. Is that ghosting?

Roberta (1:07:40)
Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

That might be ghosting light. I don't know

Sonia (1:07:57)
Okay, fine, whatever.

That's what I do, because not every friendship is meant to go to distance, and so again, it's like.

Roberta (1:08:08)
That's

fair, yeah. But see, for me, how that happens for me is that I don't necessarily trail off. They'll become what I kind of in my mind term a transactional friend. Like they'll be more of an acquaintance or so. Like somebody I'll just call up and be like, hey, this thing's happening, let's go to this thing or whatever.

Sonia (1:08:19)
That's

I feel like I can do better at that. I feel like I can do better about letting new people in my life. I feel like I'm not great at making the friendships, friends like that. I feel like it, and I'm, there's probably so many reasons why. The first is I'm an introvert, so.

Roberta (1:08:45)
Yeah.

Sonia (1:08:55)
I'm not going out a lot. I'm not gonna be, like if we're in a big group setting, I can become very shy. And I feel like people, yeah, like I'm not gonna talk. And I think, like if you ever seen me in a crowd, like if we've gone to school together, or we went to college together, and we was cool, but we was not, you know, but not cool enough to just, there's always this thing in my brain where I'm like, do they remember me and I don't remember them? And so I'm not gonna talk.

Roberta (1:09:00)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Mmm...

Sonia (1:09:24)
That's how I am. I'm

Roberta (1:09:24)
Really?

Sonia (1:09:25)
like, they don't remember me. I don't, why am I even saying? And so it has the ability to like keep me from making connections with people. And probably people probably think I'm standoffish because they like, yeah she know she see me. But I'm like in my head, I'm like, they don't remember me or I thought it wasn't, you know. And so I don't want to have my feelings hurt by going up and saying, hey girl. And you like, and you are. That's my.

Roberta (1:09:33)
So interesting, okay.

Mmm.

Really? That's...

That's so interesting that you experienced that. Because so my knowledge of you, so that is a an insecurity, which I think is totally normal and fine. It's just in my mind how I see you, you just completely lack insecurity.

Sonia (1:10:08)
Untrue. Untrue, because I do big, that's why I don't like networking. I hate it.

Roberta (1:10:09)
Eh, eh, I'm seeing now.

I hate networking. Well,

that gets into like small talk. I don't like small talk.

Sonia (1:10:21)
But yes, I don't do

small talk well. Like I'm either asking you about your life, why did you, like, sometimes I can kick myself because I'll just be meeting people. like, for instance, we went to this networking thing together and we were all talking and this lady was like, yes, I do diversity, equity, and inclusion. And here my first question. So how do you feel about all this attack on your industry? What are you doing? Like, why did you ask that lady that? You just met her.

Roberta (1:10:48)
but then you end up having a really fruitful conversation, interesting conversation, okay?

Sonia (1:10:50)
But I'd be like, you just

be all in this lady's business. What is she? I don't know. just, like that was literally my next question. And I was like, but it's stuff like that that I feel, I just feel.

socially awkward sometimes. Like Derrick is the complete opposite. He thrives on people, he can talk to anyone, he loves attention and a crowd, and so he's very different. He has a lot of friends, don't, know, like a lot. His network of friends is very large, and I'm like the opposite, where my network of friends is very small. But, yeah.

Roberta (1:11:17)
Yeah.

First of all, I think that's okay. But

second of all, so if you want to make new friends, how do you feel about that? how do you go about...

Sonia (1:11:31)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I know I need to do better. was like, need to deepen my friendship bench sometimes. Sometimes. I don't want it to get too big, because it's like, oof, talking on the phone, trying to keep up with everybody. There's a part of me that's like, oof.

Roberta (1:11:51)
It is, it is, yes, we had a

stat about that somewhere, about that, but yeah.

Sonia (1:11:55)
But I can do better about

putting myself out there. I feel like you are very good at that. I feel like you have levels of friends. And I have levels of friends and people I'm cool with, but I don't have a bench where it's like, this is my core, and then outside of that, is my, just outside of core, and this is, and then you have a lot of people who choose to do stuff with. I don't, I just like, these are my friends, and these are my acquaintances.

Roberta (1:12:13)
Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Sonia (1:12:24)
But I don't really hang out with my acquaintances like that, but sometimes I do. It's just really weird. It's just a really, and I feel like I could do better with that. But I feel like you're very good at making friends. So you tell me, Educate the people.

Roberta (1:12:28)
Yeah.

Honestly, that has been more a result of the situations I'm in. So I'll give you one example. I went to, they have this thing here called Gallery Nights, and it's once a month, the National Gallery of Art would open up after hours, and it would be yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a really good event. It's hundreds of people. So anyway, so I went there, and...

Sonia (1:12:55)
Yeah, I've seen that on You've been to those? Of course you have.

Roberta (1:13:05)
I literally was, I had a drink and I was by myself and yes. What? Oh yeah, okay, so that was my thing for 2024. I rarely would do that, but I'm just like, screw it, I'm just gonna do it. And honestly, that was one of the best decisions that I've ever made. It forced me to get out of my, I mean, here's the thing, you're not going to not be awkward. I was still awkward, but

Sonia (1:13:10)
So that's, wait, hold on, pause. So that's number one. The fact that you went by yourself.

Roberta (1:13:34)
I opened myself up and I met some really interesting, genuine people by just deciding to do stuff by myself. Because even so, when I did stuff with other people, I would go to the thing and enjoy it, but I would literally just be talking to the person that I came with. And that could be fun and fine, but it...

Sonia (1:13:36)
huh.

Right.

So how do you do

that? How do you, okay. So you're at the gallery.

Roberta (1:13:54)
So

I'm at the thing and they have, so the way it's set up, they have like little tables everywhere, but not a lot of tables. And so I was just milling around. And so there was a group of women, I'd say maybe five or six women at a table. And I was hey, do you mind if I just set my drink here? whatever. And they're like, sure. And so I joined in and I think one of them maybe asked me a question or something. Anyway, we just struck up a conversation about the event and no lie, I was there at that table. The five of us were there at that table.

Sonia (1:14:13)
Mm-hmm.

Roberta (1:14:22)
for at least an hour, hour and a half. And we all exchanged, we started following each other on Instagram. We even created a group chat in Instagram. And from there, we kind of branched out and shared numbers or whatever. I went to a dinner party at one of their houses, like.

Sonia (1:14:25)
Right.

Mm-hmm.

See,

I love that. And you explaining that story tapped into an insecurity I have around mean girls. I went to a high school where obviously probably everybody in high school had mean girls. Like they're the popular ones, they're the... I have this...

Roberta (1:14:51)
Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sonia (1:15:06)
And sometimes people can still be mean girls and it's my own thing where I'm just like, are they mean girls? Are they gonna want me to infiltrate their group? Okay.

Roberta (1:15:15)
no. So here's the thing. absolutely not. Here's the thing, and here's

the beautiful thing about being in your 40s. That doesn't exist anymore. No, we're all friends. Like, just off, you are you're automatically a friend until you're not a friend.

Sonia (1:15:24)
Mean Girls don't exist.

Really? Okay.

Okay. Yeah.

Roberta (1:15:35)
you know what mean? So the table

that I went to, was a very dynamic, and come to find out, I had no idea. I found out after the fact that they didn't know each other. I thought I was joining in on their group and they had all.

Sonia (1:15:43)
They didn't. this story

gives me hope that I can do that, right? Because like I said, I think it's my own insecurity thing where I'm Right.

Roberta (1:15:50)
Girl, absolutely. Yeah. Or just your carryover from high school or college

or whatever. When I tell you women, especially in the times we're living in, and in the spaces that we find ourselves in, meaning that if we're like-minded enough to all want to go to a museum on a Thursday night or whatever, we're going to be open and welcoming. And so...

Sonia (1:16:12)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Roberta (1:16:17)
Yeah, there's no, that's the beauty of it.

Sonia (1:16:18)
You know what, I love that you said

that. And now that I'm thinking back over my experiences going to dinner parties and being, and you sitting with people like you're at a, know, whatever, and you're sitting at a table. People are nice. They do talk to you. It's, I do, okay, so I'm disagree. I do think mean girls still exist, I do. But.

Roberta (1:16:33)
Yeah.

Okay.

Sonia (1:16:41)
I need to overcome that and overcome that feeling that I have that everybody's a mean girl so I'm gonna stay over here to myself. Because that's not the case and that hasn't even been my experience when I think about it. So you've actually done something for me that I need to think about more. So thank you.

Roberta (1:16:49)
Yeah, no.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. again, so don't go into it thinking oh, let me try not to be awkward. You're gonna be awkward. I'm gonna be awkward. Do that anyway, because nine times out of 10 other people are awkward too in some way. Even the most extroverted people person person.

Sonia (1:17:08)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Roberta (1:17:19)
is still gonna be like, hi, my name is, who are you? Like, it just is. But again, I think there's something, a dynamic of being older, that we just get it, and we just know it, and we say we give each other grace.

Sonia (1:17:22)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

I love that. Thank you. I really feel enlightened by that.

story for real, because I do struggle with like putting myself out there, I'm going to be embarrassed. I feel like it's very juvenile, but look, I'd be lying if I said, And that everybody's experiences that. Yes. So yes, you are very good. So I think that's very good advice. Go by yourself. Don't be afraid to go by yourself. You don't have to, but don't be afraid to. And then be open when you get there. And I think that's what the lesson I needed.

Roberta (1:17:47)
It's a very real human thing to, yeah.

Come by yourself.

Right.

Sonia (1:18:05)
to hear which is the be open part.

Roberta (1:18:08)
Yeah,

right. And it helps to if you're doing something that you like to do, I like museums, I like art. So it was a natural thing to talk about. So I'm in the dynamic of a museum and we're having a thing and there's live music and I'm like, what do you think of this band? it's just natural things that you don't have to think of. what do I talk about? You have it all around you in the environment.

Sonia (1:18:16)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

that's true. Yeah, so do things that interest you. Go where there is natural conversations to be had and then be open. I like those, thank you for that. Sincerely, I do. Because I would like to do more of that or be open to having a bigger bench of friends around. So, thanks.

Roberta (1:18:40)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Sonia (1:18:53)
Okay, now we've been talking for a minute for a minute so I Know you out you actually need to have food you actually don't need to refill so when you're out that means the conversation Yes, I was like when you out the conversation over. That's it. I can only talk to Roberta while she's drinking That's it so gosh, I feel like there was so many

Roberta (1:18:53)
Yeah, you're welcome.

I'm not, look, listen, I'm not, I'm not a wife.

This is like, this is our hourglass.

Yes.

Sonia (1:19:20)
So many examples of the grown and growing challenge that we like to leave people with at the end. But if you could pick one, which one would it be? Like what's your grown and growing challenge for our listeners?

Roberta (1:19:26)
Yes, yes.

Ooh, four.

So I could go in the path and direction of nurturing existing friendships. I could go in the path of making new friendships. I think for this week's challenge, I'm gonna lean into nurturing your existing friendships. I'm gonna take it back to the top of the episode when we were sharing about what we love about each other. I think, yeah, reach out to your close friends.

Sonia (1:19:56)
that's a good one.

Roberta (1:20:00)
and tell them what you value about them. Yeah.

Sonia (1:20:03)
And

I am going to do as my challenge, I'm going to lean into the lesson I just learned or have been reminded about is being more open to bringing new people into your life and to being open to finding new friendships. And so I'm going to challenge myself to put myself in a position that will allow me to

open the door to new friends and not be held back by my own insecurities. And so that's what I want to challenge other people. Where in your life can you be more open? And I feel like you have the opportunity to do that in your challenge that you have with your existing friendships and then you have an opportunity to do that with establishing new ones. So, friendships are important.

Roberta (1:20:35)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

important.

Sonia (1:21:01)
And we done. I'm gonna say, my

usual at the end, please follow us on social media. But more importantly than that, can you share this with your friends? Y'all, share this podcast with your friends. Share this episode. If you love your friends, send this to them and say, hey, I got something for you. I got a gift for you. And if you like what you hear, leave us a review. And I appreciate all of the DMs and the texts that I get about the podcast.

Roberta (1:21:11)
Yes, share with your friends. This is your gift.

Yes, we're

Sonia (1:21:31)
to.

Roberta (1:21:31)
getting so many like your comments and like your commentary. And so that's what we want to do.

Sonia (1:21:34)
Thank you, but I want y'all to leave that

on the, like, on the Apple, on the Spotify, in the review section. I do appreciate the notes that I get, but, you know, if you wanna drop us a little five star with a little, ho ho ho, y'all a key.

Roberta (1:21:38)
Yes.

Yes, because that does help

us out actually in a very practical way because the more reviews we get, the more positive reviews, the more will be shown on Spotify and different platforms. So that does actually help us out. But yeah, but in addition to the community and we want to hear from you guys because yeah, we this is what fuels our conversations. So we love to hear from you guys.

Sonia (1:21:54)
Cheers.

It

Mm-hmm.

Yes. So thank you, my friend, for a very good conversation about friendship. I love this one. Wait, that's not a heart. Eee! All right. Peace out, everybody. Goodbye.

Roberta (1:22:15)
Yes. All right,

bye.