76. Ambition: An Honest Discussion about Midlife Motivation

In this episode, we dive into the ever-evolving meaning of ambition—especially for Black women navigating midlife. What does ambition look like now? How has it changed over the years? We get honest about our own journeys, unpack the historical and generational forces that shaped our drive, and explore how ambition shifts from chasing career goals to finding personal fulfillment. It’s a thoughtful and inspiring conversation about redefining success on your own terms. 

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Chapters

• 1:17 Defining Ambition
• 3:53 Ambition and Black Women
• 10:21 Generational Influences on Ambition
• 16:22 Motivation: Internal vs External and Dreams vs Survival
• 24:03 Climbing the Corporate Ladder
• 32:10 Evaluating What Drives Us
• 38:02 Understanding What is 'Enough'
• 40:17 The Journey of Growth and Self-Discovery

Transcript

Sonia (00:14)
Welcome back to the Grown and Growing podcast. I am Sonia Did you notice that I dropped my last name? Thank you.

Roberta (00:18)
and I'm Roberta.

I saw. I'm proud of you.

Sonia (00:25)
All right, let's just get into this topic I'll start it off by saying, do you consider yourself an ambitious person?

Roberta (00:34)
would say yes, in the grand scheme of things. Compared to general population, I think I'm ambitious.

Sonia (00:35)
You do. Why?

based on what?

Roberta (00:43)
Based on my past achievements, so based on what I've accomplished in life so far, I would think I'm ambitious.

Sonia (00:45)
Mm.

Right.

I would say the same. I would say that I would put myself on the ambitious Like if it was a scale, I would be more on the ambitious end of things. Like I am not the most ambitious person. But when I look back on the things that I wanted and I pursued in my life, yes, I've gone after them and I have achieved them. I think just generally people may see me as ambitious, I think. So yeah, I would categorize myself

Roberta (00:56)
Right.

Right.

Sonia (01:17)
as being on the ambitious side of things. So I wanted to have this conversation because I think ambition is worth thinking about, talking about, particularly at this stage of our lives. Like we're midlife and ambition doesn't look the same. I know.

Roberta (01:21)
Okay.

midlife. Why makes me feel so old? Okay.

Sonia (01:37)
When I'm talking about something, I always like to know the definition of it. So I went to Merriam-Webster's dictionary and I looked up the definition. So it had two definitions. One was an ardent desire for rank, fame or power was the first. And then the second one was the desire to achieve a particular end. So I feel like I'm more of the second one, desire to achieve a particular end.

Like I feel like that's me. feel like when I think about the ardent desire for rank, fame, or power, I think of Elon Musk or Donald Trump or I think, I don't know. It has kind of a negative kind of connotation to it. The first, the first definition.

Roberta (02:14)
Okay.

Right.

Yes. Well, yeah, and that leads to like the attachments or definitions be, you know, put to fame or power or whatever, but yes.

Sonia (02:28)
Yeah, yeah, maybe that's just my own slant looking at it. Like, I guess it doesn't have to be negative, but I think if you live in the US and what you consider ambitious based on what you see, then I think it would fit that first definition.

I wanted to look up like, you know, where black women tend to fall on the ambitious scale. Like I think, you know, particularly coming out of this election and just knowing about black women overall, my friends, you, know, other people that I know, um, black women, I just feel in my soul that we are an ambitious being. We're an ambitious group of people and research actually backs that up. So I looked.

a few examples where black women overall are like leading the way and it kind of shows how ambitious we are. So the first place I looked was around education.

So black women, a higher percentage of black women are enrolled in college more than any other group. And that's more than Asians, white women and white men. When you look at career, a study by Lean In, you know the book Lean In, leanin.org and McKinsey & Co. stated that 48 % of women of color, particularly black, said that they aspire to be top executives in corporations. And that's compared to 37 % of white women.

Roberta (03:39)
Mm-hmm.

Interesting. Okay. That's like half. That's a lot.

Sonia (03:54)
So they do not have the desire.

It's like half, but the interesting part of it is the black women are ambitious, but they don't get the opportunity.

Roberta (04:04)
Right. Yeah.

Sonia (04:05)
It's a story for another day or maybe later on. And

then in entrepreneurship, according to a 2016 state of women owned businesses report, black women are the fastest growing group of entrepreneurs in the United States. So again, that's, that's something I can also see. And then the final stat was interesting to me because it talked about the percentage of black women who are homeowners and that number in, I guess it says from 20 to 2021.

increased from 32 % to 35%. Single female home buyers are most common among black women.

And they represent 27 % of all black home buyers. So of all black home buyers, 27 % are single female home buyers. Does that make sense? It's a lot of home buyers in there.

Roberta (04:51)
Hmm, it does. That's a lot, right. But of

them, that is a significant portion that are single black women. Yeah.

Sonia (05:03)
And

when you compare it to single women in other races, so we top that. So 24 % of all Asian home buyers are single, 17 % of white buyers, 7 % of Hispanics, which I was shocked by that. I thought that would be higher, but.

Roberta (05:12)
single one.

Yeah,

Sonia (05:19)
Yeah,

so in all those categories, black women are outpacing. And even with the election, mean, this whole 92%, 92 % now, it's 92 % of a very small segment of the population, but there is this idea of black women just being ambitious, going after it, really driven.

Roberta (05:27)
Right.

Alright.

Sonia (05:46)
So I, know, my feeling is really backed up by, you know, research.

Roberta (05:51)
Right, right. Which then lends me to wonder and like think about like, what's driving that ambition? Right? Like where does all that come from? mean, those, staff, especially the half, the half of the black women who have a desire to be in like a top executive, like where does that come from? And I'm sure a lot of it comes from a negative space potentially, or it could come from, or it can be seen as a negative trait, both.

Sonia (06:08)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Roberta (06:17)
just in general for women, not even talking about just specifically black women, but just for women, like it's seen as like, you know, more masculine thing to be ambitious, specifically in your career and want to climb and be an executive. You know, you're called a bitch sometimes and ruthless and selfish and ignoring your family and not having family values. Like all those things have been around since a very long time. I would say like kind of like peaked in the eighties, but that's always been a thing. But despite that,

Sonia (06:26)
Mm-hmm.

For real, yeah.

Roberta (06:45)
I think ambition hasn't really been impacted. I think people are still pushing for it. And then also there's a segment of the population who believe women shouldn't be ambitious in the same way or career-minded or career-focused. And you have the pendulum is swinging the other way and we have everything about the trad wife and everything on TikTok with that whole thing. And we're not going to get into that tonight, but.

Sonia (07:10)
which

is the craziest thing. I'm like the trad wife, this whole trad wife thing. It's so interesting. it because people are nosy and they just are in awe of these women who are doing it all? I don't really get the whole trad wife thing. It's interesting.

Roberta (07:27)
think so it's

very interesting and I was just looking at some you know think pieces on it and like perspectives on it and it comes from and I don't disagree with this this notion is that the trad wife comes from a place of privilege is because when you see like women and you know doing these things and it's usually like they're cooking stuff from like scratch and it's like usually it's like overdone like it's just like over exaggerated.

Sonia (07:39)
Mmm.

Yeah.

Roberta (07:49)
But you don't

see them doing the normal everyday stuff. You don't see them cleaning up and scrubbing toilets and washing clothes and folding laundry. You see them doing this like, yeah, glamorous thing. But even that, if that's the case and they have three hours to make cereal from scratch, that comes from a place of privilege because they don't have to scrub the toilets and fold the laundry and do everything else. that's a whole nother thing, but like.

Sonia (07:56)
Yeah. Glamorous.

Yeah.

So you're saying the trad wives are really rich women who have the privilege of being, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Roberta (08:15)
we up time to do those things. Yeah, cause

they, cause they're potentially not, you know, they're not working. They're not, you know, doing the things.

Sonia (08:23)
Yeah. And it's

interesting that they're so popular because I think that, you know, it's like, God, women have enough pressure on ourselves. Like I used to follow Nara and it's always interesting to see her you know, make Cheerios from scratch or make gum or whatever she's making that day. But I'm like, it's just this added pressure that

Roberta (08:33)
Mm-hmm.

Sonia (08:44)
you gotta go and do something else. Like it's not enough that you go to the store and buy the chicken. Now you gotta go kill the chicken yourself, pluck the feathers and put it in the oven or it's not, you know, or you're doing something wrong. So anyway, we got off track, but I do think that ambition for black women is rooted in the fact that, you know, the, history of this country. mean, I think that we,

Roberta (08:46)
Right.

Sonia (09:09)
needed it to survive. Like if we didn't, if we weren't ambitious and we didn't have this drive to succeed, we would be, where would we be in this country? We would be nowhere, right? We would still be slaves actually. Pretty much. And so I think that we have taken this, this thing that we needed to survive and we've kind of reframed it as, we've reframed it as empowerment, right? It's like,

Yes, we were doing this to survive, but then we pushed it a little further. And now it's like, we can do all of these things as well. And now it's like empowerment and survival, right? It's like, it kind of goes hand in hand. So.

Roberta (09:46)
Yeah,

that's interesting. think a lot of that is generational. I think a lot of that came from, well, speaking for myself, a lot of came from my mom. And the push was get a good job for financial reasons to be able to sustain.

Sonia (09:51)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Roberta (10:04)
Yeah, I think that is the driving force, at least for our generation. And it came from a place of survival, of insecurity, of not wanting to be completely powerless. But I do think that was heavily influenced by our parents.

Sonia (10:16)
Right.

Yeah, our parents experienced it firsthand, like the need to have this ambition. it had to be like careful ambition, like guarded ambition. And then they put it on us as like, look, when you go out there, you gotta be twice as good and work twice as hard to go half as far. Yes, we all know that. When I think about that, it's so sad. It's so sad. I hope people are not still saying that. Do we still have to say that?

Roberta (10:30)
Mmm.

This is hard to get the half as fast.

Incredibly sad.

like internalizing

that, I hope not.

Sonia (10:51)
Sometimes I feel like we I do feel like we would. I'm like, I'm trying to think what I tell my kids that I do tell them to work hard, right? I want them to work hard because it is the thing that is going to get them. It's a good value. It's a skill to have. It's, it's, need the grit in order to be able to get through this world. I don't want to put the half as far on there.

Roberta (10:58)
Right.

Right.

Well,

right, you don't wanna put it in the context of other people, of white people, of men, of whatever. It's just like you gotta work hard to be successful in life, kinda thing.

Sonia (11:20)
And honestly,

I don't even think that they would relate to that. I don't think that, like if I said that to my kids, they like half as far, but my daughter, she's like, I'm in the same, you know, I'm in the same class with the Asians and the, you know, she's like, what? Like, I don't even think it would occur to them that that was, that was going to be their road.

Roberta (11:23)
Hmm.

Jesus.

I love that. Right.

Right.

Sonia (11:41)
So our lessons to them have been different based on, you know, just us growing up in the world, the world changing. The isms are still there, right? The racism, the sexism, classic capitalism is, it's the root of all evil in my opinion. But yeah, my mom is the same. Like she's instilled in me to

Roberta (11:41)
Right.

business.

Capitalism. Girl, I blame everything on capitalism. Right.

Sonia (12:03)
be super independent. have two sisters and though she was married and my dad was in the house the whole time, she wanted us to be independent. She wanted us to be able to take care of ourselves. And there was always this unspoken thing where we had to, well, I felt like I had to achieve more than my mom's generation.

Roberta (12:24)
Mm-hmm.

Sonia (12:24)
did,

right? I needed to do a little bit more than what she did. So my mom graduated from college. She was the first person in her family to do so. And so now all three of my sisters, are our college graduates, masters, you know, just got to take it a little bit further than the last generation.

Roberta (12:38)
Yeah.

I mean, me specifically, think my drive came from, well, partially my mom had that definitely, it wasn't an option. I was going to college, you know, and it was like, okay, you gotta get a good job.

Sonia (12:50)
Mm-hmm.

Roberta (12:53)
to take care of yourself, not only that, she's like, get a good job so you can buy mommy a BMW so you can get mom a house. It was like those kinds of like, as if I was going off into the NBA kind of thing. So it was that, but then also like literally my father, so my father passed away when I was three. He had cancer and it developed really quickly. And in that three month period from the time he was diagnosed until the time he died, he wrote me early, he started writing me a letter.

Sonia (12:59)
Right.

Roberta (13:18)
And in that letter, it was very much, get your education, be independent, don't rely on anyone. Specifically, he even said like, don't rely on a man to take care of you, be able to take care of yourself out in the world. Like it was very much that kind of thing he wanted for his daughter. And I remember getting that letter like pretty early. Like I was maybe in junior high by the time my mom gave it to me, but that definitely led my

Sonia (13:23)
Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Roberta (13:44)
drive my ambition and specifically, yeah, when it comes to like career and like, financial independence specifically. So I knew that, okay, in order for me to have financial independence, I need to like have a good career. And so, just it's, it's literally started there. And then, yeah, like you said, like with the stat with education and it my mother being like, you're going to college. It's not an option.

Sonia (13:45)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Right, right, for sure.

Right.

Roberta (14:05)
and the fact that I'm like the only person in my whole family who has a master's degree. So it's definitely, it's strong family ties to where my ambition came from.

Sonia (14:08)
Mm-hmm.

Right. my goodness. I can't believe you have a letter from your dad. Do you still have it? You do.

Roberta (14:19)
I know I do.

so he originally, a little bit of irony because, I'm not religious, but originally he wrote it in the Bible and the family Bible. So I have it there, but, I took years ago, I copied it and I laminated it. And so I literally have it on my wall. Yeah.

Sonia (14:28)
Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

That's so sweet. I love that. I did not know that.

Roberta (14:39)
Yes, yes it is. And it's interesting because I reflected like over over the last couple of years and I've taken both positive and negative things away from it. Like positive to like, yeah, it's all the things that it's it's led me to certain accomplishments in my life, my education and my career, but also a part of my

Sonia (14:45)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Roberta (14:59)
personality and this is partially because I'm only child and this is just how I came up in the world, but like I'm very independent, like very independent. So when it comes to like interpersonal relationships, I am pretty self centered and, and this is a tangent. mean, I don't want to go too far down the rabbit hole, but I do believe that like,

Sonia (15:05)
Mm-hmm.

Roberta (15:18)
Self-centeredness is a good thing, it's important, but too much of it, you know, clearly is not good for like connections and relationships with people. So anyway, so I've been kind of reflecting on that letter a little bit more over the last like year or two, but the same thing that I, you know, originally took away from it, I still take away from it, which is like, be able to take care of myself. And a lot of that comes, that's where I get a lot of my personal drive from.

Sonia (15:23)
Yeah.

Right.

Yeah, and you should not, well, just, this is my personal, know, just looking at you over the last 20 years or so. I'm like, you've definitely done that. Like, definitely have taken care of yourself and set yourself up well. I think your dad would be very proud of you. I don't know what negative you've attached to that, but I think he would be very proud of where you are right now.

Roberta (16:04)
Yes, I agree with that. I do think he would be very proud that with his original intention of what he wanted for my life. Yes, absolutely. But that gets me thinking of like, what drives your ambition? What is your motivation? Where does it come from? And like, what does that mean? You know, what are the, what are, how much of it is internal versus external?

How do you define what is internal versus external? I think it's our internal thoughts that could be crafted from family, or not just what we're told, but also what we see and what's demonstrated for us.

Sonia (16:34)
Yeah.

Roberta (16:35)
But also then there's like, once we get in out in the world, then there's like our peers and other people's perceptions of us, you all these other external things that I do believe have just as much impact on our drive and ambition. And so it's a really interesting thing to like ponder and think about and like, how do we factor that into how we move forward in life?

Sonia (16:54)
Yeah, I think that yeah, so you have these internal internal influences versus your external influences. And I will also add like.

your dreams versus your survival, right? You know, how do you weigh? And I, it's interesting because I don't, even though they're similar, like internal versus external and dreams versus, I don't see them as the same. I do think, I don't know. I think if you're, I think it's different for each person. I really do. I think you're right. It's based on your environment. But I would say for me, I think,

external influences is how you start, right? At least for me, I started out, you know, I was able to...

you know, put my spin on the dreams, right? Like I was able to choose my college, right? Choose my degree, but I, but I was going to college, right? It was like, there was no, yeah. So there's that external influence of, and also when I think of external, it's also who am I trying to please? Right? I want my parents to be proud of me, right? I spoke about, you know, you know, making sure that I, you know, take this generation, my generation a little bit further.

Roberta (17:44)
Right.

Sonia (18:02)
than

my mom's generation, I consider those external influences as well. And I think there is a certain point where in your life where those are the things that are driving you. And I would dare to say all the way up into my 30s, I guess I don't know people would consider that late, but.

All the way up until well into my adulthood, I was still driven by like remnants of those external influences kind of mixed in, right? You know, I think, and when it comes to dreams and survival, right? I think people who are solely driven by their dreams and they have the ability to dream and follow their dreams and their passions all the way.

I feel like that is such a privilege, right? I feel like it is a, it is a privilege to be able to do that in an unabashed way, right? I think for many people I know, it's like a mixture of survival and dreams, right? Because it depends on what your dream is, right? If your dream is to become a doctor, if your dream is to become some engineer, then you know, maybe your survival is less, right? But if you want to be an entrepreneur of any kind, or if you want to

Roberta (18:48)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Sonia (19:13)
be

an artist or a, you know, something in the art field or a writer, right? You have to weigh out like the survival of it all. Like how do you, you know?

Roberta (19:25)
Yeah,

well, this is where capitalism comes in. Because it's like, yeah, if you have to worry about paying bills and having a certain level of financial security, then are you able to just let your mind wander and be educated just for the sake of being educated because you want to know versus having to put that knowledge to work? I do think that is a privileged perspective, which is so unfortunate.

Sonia (19:46)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Roberta (19:51)
It's so

unfortunate, like you can't just let your motivations, and also I feel like, yeah, you're super lucky if your, what makes you money and covers you is also something that's part of your dreams. I think that's really rare.

Sonia (20:03)
Yeah. I think that's what most

people, that's what most people want or most people are searching for. And even if I think about myself now, I am more internally focused, right? And trying to understand like, this is my dream and what are my dreams and what do I want out of this life? But I am still,

Roberta (20:10)
tough.

Sonia (20:25)
I still consider the needs of my family. The needs of my family really impact how I live my life, how driven I am, how ambitious I am. don't feel like you are, if ambition again is on a scale, you're not like at 10 ambition your whole life. I feel like you kind of ebb and flow.

out of in and out of being ambitious and not. know when I had, when I first had my kids, I was 32 and 34 or something like that. Look from 32 to 37. I don't even remember what happened in those years. I have no memory. There was no ambition.

Right? I just wanted to get up. I just wanted my kids to be healthy, meaning did I not kill them because I left them somewhere? Right? I just, there was, I literally lived in a fog. I do not remember what I did at work. Don't ask me. I wasn't looking for a promotion. don't, just want to come in, do the barest minimum to not get fired and go home. but then something kicked in after my kids got in school.

Roberta (21:01)
Yeah.

Bzzzz

Yeah.

Yeah.

Sonia (21:27)
Then I was like, it was like a click, then it turned back on. All of a sudden I woke up and I was like, hmm, I want more than this cubicle.

Roberta (21:36)
That's so interesting because it's like, yeah, so then you suspended your natural drive for the sake of these two humans. But it came back, which means there was something there, there's something innately or something super conditioned that it came back to you.

Sonia (21:56)
Yeah, and I don't think I suspended it even on purpose. I think if my 28-year-old idealistic self, I would have been doing it all, working mom. I would have been, I didn't anticipate that there would be this downtime, even though I was still working, right? I still consider it downtime, because there was like, look, it was not only that they were my focus, I didn't have the energy.

Roberta (22:06)
No.

Sonia (22:23)
I didn't have the time. I didn't want to. Don't leave me alone. I just want to go to sleep.

Look, I didn't I didn't want to be but I do think it does come back like the fog does lift when they become more independent and They're not relying on you as much to do things for them So, you know, I was but when I came back I was like, alright, I want a promotion? I need a like I need to be doing more I need to be doing something different So I think that you know, it's not linear and it's not one thing when it comes to what

Roberta (22:31)
Yeah.

Hmm.

Right.

Sonia (22:57)
drives a person's ambition. And also, I also like to add it's not wrong either. Like if you're driven by survival, look, that's very noble. That's a very like, you got to eat, you need a roof over your head. This country is very hard to live in. They do not make it easy. And if your drive is to put a roof over your head and be safe, I don't feel like there's nothing wrong with that either. It's sad, but right.

Roberta (22:59)
Right.

Yeah.

Right. It is sad. is sad. Again, capitalism. I

just want to make an observation. like, so I mean, and everything we've been talking about in this conversation so far has been an ambition as it relates to career and finances.

No one really talks about being ambitious as far as like personal happiness and achievement. So like when you, when you had the period of like you focused on out of survival or whatever of like taking care of your humans, when you came back into like when you drive kicked back in, it wasn't necessarily, I really want to be an artist. I really want to be a painter. It was like, no, I want to get a promotion. And so that is just super curious and super interesting to me of like how, and I don't

it's just an American thing, I would venture to say it is, that like how ambition, how a drive kicks in and when it kicks in, it's usually in a career-focused or financially-focused way.

Sonia (24:03)
Right. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, because at that time, number one, was just, I have always had this desire to, when I was younger and I was younger in my career after college, I just wanted to climb the corporate ladder. Like I, that was my dream. I wanted to be correct. I wanted to...

Roberta (24:28)
So you were one of the 48 % of who wanted to be a top exec. So where did that come

from though? Where do you think that came from?

Sonia (24:35)
I think it came from just, it just looked like a powerful role to be in, to make those decisions. I love.

I am a, it did match with my skillset. I am a problem solver. I love solving problems at work and like breaking things down. And I've come to learn about myself, although you may disagree that I am a very good leader, right? I'm a, I, you know, thank you very much. Yeah. I lead my team very well. And I just think it fits my personality. I just never had the desire to be an entrepreneur.

Roberta (24:59)
You're a great leader.

Sonia (25:10)
I always thought I would be a business lady in a suit at the top of whatever, VP, SVP, CMO, whatever. I just always knew I would be in that role. And to some extent, that was a part of my dream, right? I cannot separate career from other ambitions in life, but I wasn't.

Roberta (25:10)
Mmm.

Yeah, Yeah, ugh.

Sonia (25:30)
I didn't get to the point where I was really thinking about internally what made me happy. Two things had to happen. One, I needed to be older, right? I needed to be wiser. And then the second thing is I needed to, the varnish had to come off of corporate America.

the shine had to come off of it. And the shine didn't, doesn't really come off until you're in it, right? Until you're in it and you see it and you are, you're working and it's not all it's cracked up to be. Right? And so those two things kind of merge and then you get to your forties and you're like, is there more, there is more to life.

Roberta (25:47)
Mmm.

Right, right.

Yes. Yes. And so let's, let's see it. Let's, let's like get into a little bit more of like this shift. Cause we both, I mean, the reason why we're even talking about this is because we both have felt a shift over the last couple of years. Like since like being over 40 of this ain't it.

Sonia (26:14)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Roberta (26:26)
you know, whatever it was and whatever it has been, like, it's just not it. And it's not to say that like everything, there's no necessarily like regret or this is like, no, like I just want out. This is not necessarily that it's just like the drive for the career parts. And like when you say CMO, just that one acronym made me feel so drained. It was just like, yes, yes.

Sonia (26:26)
This ain't it. Yeah.

Stop that.

Yeah. Chief marketing officer. But yeah,

I have, but look, I have no desire to be a chief marketing officer right now. I don't even know if it'll come back. Me too. I used to. No way. And then I'll even say this.

Roberta (26:53)
None. I used to though. I used to. But like now, no way.

Get somebody else to do it. That's my...

Sonia (27:04)
Before I started this podcast

and what actually led to this podcast being started is me being, getting passed over for a VP position that I thought I really wanted. Actually, I didn't really want it, but I wanted the title. Right. And that, and that's even interesting. The fact that I wanted, I was going to take a job that I knew I was going to hate.

I knew it from the outset that I was going to hate it, but I wanted the salary and I wanted the title because it would do, it would open more different doors for me. That's what I thought. And when I didn't get it, I really had to reevaluate my whole steez. I was working with a coach and she just asked me this simple question. Like, what do you really want? We always talk about this VP position, but what else do you want?

Roberta (27:28)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Mm-hmm.

Sonia (27:48)
And that led me down a hole that led me here, honestly. And it's not to say this is a means to an end, you know, I always say, I don't know if this is the thing or the thing that leads to the thing. I just know this is where I am right now.

Roberta (27:51)
Right.

Right, right. I think, well, a lot of that whole like CMO and the VP, a lot of that, if I'm being really honest, was about external validation. Like if somebody were to, you know, if I introduce myself and I say, I'm the VP, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Sonia (28:10)
Yeah.

Roberta (28:15)
then people will have a baseline of, she must be smart. people must take her seriously. like, yes. And the older I get, the more I just have that validation baked in or from other parts of my life where I don't need that from my career. I don't need that from a title in my career. And so that has, you know.

Sonia (28:21)
right. Respect.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah.

Roberta (28:39)
impacted the drive to get the title, to get the thing and like all the things because yeah, it's first of all, it's a lot of work and I'm not like afraid of work. That's not it. It's just not even the work you like doing.

Sonia (28:45)
It's a lot of work.

It's not even the work that you like doing. It's the politics, okay? It's the politics. It's the

negotiation that you have to do. It's not even the work. Cause if it was honestly the work, would be cool with it, but it's not. There's so many, yeah, I don't want their problems. I don't want their problems. I don't, but.

Roberta (29:01)
It's the gymnastics, right?

It's not. It's all the other things. Right. Nope.

Sonia (29:13)
It leads me to, it did put me in this place. And if I'm being completely honest, I'm still in this place. And I don't know if it's because we're in 2025 and I'm just like, you know, again, and that's where you start to reevaluate your life. But it's, I do want to take more time. I, I am in this phase where I'm just like, well, what is going to make me happy? Cause I know it's not work.

Right? And, um, because we live in America, I cannot just be like, Oh, this job don't make me happy no more. I'm a quit. Because as we were talking about before we got on, you know, there are you, the fact that you told me that, Hmm, I didn't think that you liked your job. And I was like, wait, I do like my job. Do I? Now I have this question. I'm like, do I like my job? But there are things that I like about my job.

Roberta (29:45)
Right.

Right.

Sonia (30:07)
As jobs go, there are worse jobs. And that's not a ringing endorsement for my job. I know it's not a ringing endorsement, but there are a lot of things, right?

Roberta (30:11)
right.

Right.

Sonia (30:19)
I am more myself, right? I am respected. I get to work on more things that I want to work on versus what people ask me to do. There's the salary. I love that. You know, like there is the, the fact that I don't have to work after five o'clock. Don't call me. Don't email me. The fact that I haven't even had to pick up my, I haven't checked my email the whole time. You know, I was.

you know, we're, off if I'm on vacation or if I, you know, if I'm off, I don't have to worry about, let me run to my email and check it or somebody's going to be upset with me. Those things mean something to me right now. it means that I can do this podcast. means that I can be more present for my, you know, newly teenage kids. So I think it's me weighing those things that keeps me from, that keeps me in my position.

I know I just said all that and it's probably more for me than anybody listening but...

Roberta (31:13)
important because I mean yeah also I mean to that point it's something that you it's a question to keep asking yourself what is what is my motivation like what is what are the things that drive me what is it that I need from my career or from whatever you know the other facets of life these are questions we should always be asking ourselves and making sure that we have really good answers for

Sonia (31:19)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and I'm also one of those people who don't think that you need to quit your job to pursue your dreams. I would, in my mind, I wanna keep my little good job and also do the things I love.

Like I want to have them both. And I think that, you know, because of the life decisions that I've made, right, to have kids, to purchase a home, that's the, kind of need to stay in that. That mortgage is still due on the first. So I think that in this space that I'm in now, I feel like I can coexist with the two things, right? We can coexist. can continue to find out.

Roberta (32:00)
Right, right.

Sonia (32:10)
What is, what do I want to do? Where do I want to spend my time? What do I want to feel ambitious about? Right now I am ambitious about, you know, getting this podcast out. I'm ambitious about, you know, learning more about myself and where I want to go because I, I do feel like I have so many more years to live, right? And so I, have, I have time, but it's urgent.

Roberta (32:36)
Right, yeah, no,

think, it's, part of it is, at least for me, is thinking about what is it that I want to do? How do I want to spend my time and my energy? I know you just said, and it's true that we have many more years in front of us. However, life is still short. I think for me personally, it's about what do I want to do? How do I want to spend my time? But also, it's equally, what am I willing to sacrifice?

Sonia (32:44)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Roberta (32:59)
And I think a lot of it in the last couple of years, and I could pinpoint exactly when it switched, was like what I'm not willing to sacrifice. So when you said before, like, you would be on vacation and checking emails. I would do the same thing today. I'm not doing it. I'm not sacrificing those moments in that time anymore. It's not worth it to me for any VP or any whatever salary. Like it's just, not worth it for me. And what the thing that happened in my life that really showed that was that my partner like several years

Sonia (33:16)
Yeah.

Right.

Roberta (33:28)
ago, know, Andrew, the one who ultimately he passed away from cancer, very, I mean, he was young, vibrant person. was in his thirties, but he was very successful. He spent many years highly educated. He was a PhD. has PhD in education. He worked in education policy, spent all this time and effort and like had a passion for this thing. And then he was gone. Like this thing, cancer happened and all of that was gone.

Sonia (33:30)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Roberta (33:56)
And

that really, really made me realize that like this time, whatever we're doing now and how we decide to place our energy and our time really matters more than getting the, even if I still needed the validation from a VP title, that's still not as important as all the things that.

Sonia (34:07)
Yeah.

Roberta (34:16)
I really deem as the connections and the things and family and friends and all the things and traveling and whatever it is, way more important. And so ever since that part, that was a part of shifting, I was like, yeah, no, I'm not willing to sacrifice those things. And so it's really been hard for me because it wasn't a natural progression. wasn't, it was like, but so it's been hard for me to reconcile because it's like,

Sonia (34:19)
Right.

Yeah. Yeah. It's a shift. Yeah.

Right.

Roberta (34:44)
I still have those like external influences. still have like, look at my peers and they still have that like high level of drive and ambition and they're still getting promotions and they're still doing the things and I'm happy for them. Absolutely happy for them. That's what they want to do and how they want to spend their time and energy. I will actually support them and help them get there.

Sonia (34:47)
Mm-hmm.

Roberta (35:02)
But like, also have this thing in the back of my mind, like, Ooh, are they judging me because I'm not progressing as fast or I'm not, you know, like even this last position, like at one point in my career, I have been a VP right now. I'm a senior director. I'm okay with that, but there's a little small part, like small part of me that's just like, Hmm, are people judging me because, you know, I, I, you know, took a lower title or I'm, you know, not VP or I'm like, I'm at this age and like, there's like 35 year olds who are senior directors. I do find myself.

Sonia (35:08)
Mm-hmm.

Right?

Roberta (35:31)
caught up in that. But then I also look at like, do I really want to do all the things that are required to do that? And I was like, no, I don't want to do that.

Sonia (35:33)
Yeah.

Do I wanna do the things that are required? I,

so I'm similar to you. I still have that nudge of like, girl, should I be leading my own department? Should I be the leader? I should be the leader. You have the skills, you have the know-how.

you have the ability, but why aren't you, right? There is this nudge in me that's like, ooh, you should still be doing that. You should still be going after that. I will be lying if I said it didn't hit me sometimes, but the overwhelming feeling that I feel most times is I wanna find out other things that drive me. I wanna put my...

attention on other things that really fill me. And I, you know, and maybe a different company would be different, right? The culture will be different. The opportunities would be different. The work will be different. but at the end of the day, I feel like it always ends up being the same. It, it, you know, it always ends up still feeling like a job, which as you alluded to,

Roberta (36:39)
I mean, it is.

Sonia (36:41)
feels empty and you brought up the idea of having a job that is mission driven. I'm like, I work in healthcare, it's pretty mission driven. But it's also very corporate. And so, you know, a lot of that, I think that shine can come up. It's noble in its important work. But I definitely think that it is not, sometimes it's not all it's cracked up to be.

Roberta (36:47)
Mmm.

Right.

Sonia (37:06)
And yeah.

Roberta (37:07)
It's really not.

Even the role that I'm in now, so I just took a new job. I went from corporate reputation PR consulting to working for a nonprofit. And with that shift and change, took a huge pay cut, probably comparable to some people's And did.

Sonia (37:12)
Mm-hmm.

You did.

Roberta (37:32)
from like on paper that kind of made me nervous. But like ultimately, like I knew like what the salary that ultimately that I have, I can live off that, I'll be fine. It's enough, right? I mean, in DC, I don't know, it's an expensive city. But no, it is enough. It is completely enough. But there was like a thing, was like, oh, should I be taking a step back? Should I just keep pushing and pushing and pushing? No, no. And then I was just saying like being able to...

Sonia (37:42)
It's more than enough.

I'll tell you.

Roberta (38:02)
Enthatically answer that for yourself is incredibly important and it's incredibly satisfying to be able to ask yourself like, is this good enough? Is this really, does this sit well with my soul? And being able to emphatically answer that question, I think that is what we should be striving for, honestly.

Sonia (38:10)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I didn't. Yeah. I mean, you mentioned that word enough. And I'm like, you're so right. Like to be able to, you know, having evaluating what is enough, what is enough in life. And, and once you decide like, is this enough? And I don't mean enough in, you know, have you achieved enough?

Or would you ever have enough money? Will you ever have a house that's big enough? Would you ever drive a nice car, the nicest car? Like when you, you know, is, you know, is it enough? And I do think that I've come to the conclusion that I'm like, I'm, I have enough right now. When I think of the only, the only part I feel like I don't have enough in, and this is a different discussion, is retirement. I'm like,

I would like a little more there. But otherwise, when it comes to the desire to have things, you know, I feel like I have enough. I don't live in the biggest house. I don't live in a big house, but I live in a nice house, in a nice neighborhood, right? I don't drive the nicest car, but I drive a nice car. And so for me, these things are enough for me right now, and it's enough for my family.

Roberta (39:15)
Yeah.

Sonia (39:35)
So, you know, it's funny because I was just wondering, I'm like, what would the Instagram, you know, entrepreneurship pushers think about this conversation? Roberta, they would call, what would Rachel Rodgers think about this?

Roberta (39:51)
Way would be the the biggest

slackers the biggest like whatever

Sonia (39:58)
So for the people who feel like us, I'm like, you're not alone. But if you do, and look, if you wanna be an entrepreneur, grind to you, like grind, get the biggest, get the most, everybody should be, do it, do it. I feel like that's what you should be doing. You know, don't listen to me and Roberta. No.

Roberta (40:00)
Right.

Do it, do it.

is it's like

I'm not saying that like a drive or ambitions, but again, within the context of career is bad. It's just you got to be very conscious of how much energy it's taking from your, your soul, from your life.

Sonia (40:29)
Yeah. And also what

is it? Because when I think about my friend, she started real estate, she loves it. It fits her. I mean, she went through a lot of jobs and this is the job that fits her the most. It's where she's the happiest. And I think because she's the happiest and because she's good at it and it just so happens to be her work, she's driven by that. She's driven, like it drives her and she is motivated to...

you know, grow her business. And I feel like if you're that, if you found the thing, if you're lucky enough to find the thing that drives you and pays you, right, then you're...

Roberta (41:06)
Great.

Okay, that's

part's like an interesting piece and it's something we mentioned earlier is just like, okay Are we less ambitious now or are we just tired?

Sonia (41:13)
Yeah.

Roberta (41:18)
You

I know.

Sonia (41:21)
I mean, tired in what context? Tired of the bullshit or tired? Yeah, or tired.

Roberta (41:26)
Okay, we've

been working, like, we've been in the workforce for, 20, 25 years? That's a long time.

Sonia (41:35)
I think it's closer to 30 Roberta. Is it? Is it? Okay, okay.

Roberta (41:37)
Actually, yeah, because I'm thinking like post education, but if I

actually take into consideration that I have had some sort of job since I was 14 years old, right, yeah, then yeah, no, 30, 30 or, so yeah, part of that is just, I'm just, I'm tired. Like how long, how high is this ladder gonna go? Like I'm tired.

Sonia (41:44)
I think it's 20, yeah. God. Dang.

Yeah.

Roberta (42:01)
still have drive, I still have motivation. mean, I started a whole, I went on a entrepreneurship path three years ago, still on it.

Sonia (42:03)
Yeah. What?

And Rachel Rodgers

would be proud of you.

Roberta (42:14)
And so like

I still have that tells me I still have some drive, some motivation, but so it's not just about being tired. I think it is part of what you said, like tired of the bullshit, like tired of the, maybe it's just corporate.

Sonia (42:18)
Yeah, and I... Yeah.

Yeah, or maybe you're just tired of the rat race, right? Living in this country is a rat race and you have to be very conscious about separating yourself from that. And it's not easy because they don't make it easy because your healthcare is tied to your job and your ability to provide for your family is tied to your job. And so it is not easy to disconnect from that. But I think mentally,

Roberta (42:28)
Yeah.

Sonia (42:49)
If you can do that for yourself, then I think you're in a good place. And I do think there's something to being, are you, you know, for people who say I'm not ambitious, right? Really evaluate why you're not ambitious, right? Is it because you work in a place that's draining you and you don't have time to dream? You don't have time to think and, and think of another life or think of, or have hobbies or have other things that fill your cup.

Yeah, I would be less ambitious. You could be less ambitious. And also, you could just be in a phase in your life where you're just not ambitious, where you're comfortable where you are. I don't think the opposite of ambition is complacency.

Roberta (43:34)
laziness or anything like that. Yeah, yeah.

Sonia (43:35)
or laziness, I

don't think that's the opposite. And I do think there are periods in your life where life requires you to take.

a different approach and it's not always the pedal to the metal, foot on the gas, right? It's not always that. And I think we just have to kind of ebb and flow as we, as we go. And, and to your earlier point, figure out what is enough for you and then go.

Roberta (43:48)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like, on that. Right. Yeah.

Sonia (44:05)
in that, follow that direction, right? And

I'm still challenge, I'm still, look, I'm still in that place where I'm still trying to figure it out. Figure out what I wanna do with myself, right? Is, you know, we grown, but clearly we're still growing.

Roberta (44:16)
That's the growing part. We're grown, but we're still growing. We're still growing.

Sonia (44:22)
We're still growing. And so that actually is a good segue to our challenge, our growing challenge for our listeners. The one thing we want you to do kind of related to ambition. And I guess this is easy. as we've done in this conversation is evaluate what is driving your ambition, right? What is really driving you to do the things that you do? Is it something internal? Is it external? Is it survival? Is it your dreams?

Roberta (44:26)
Yes.

Is there some sort

of validation that you're seeking? what is it? Yeah, so kind of like sit with that. And this is a good time to do that and kind of sit with yourself and really think about that. Yes, anytime is a good time. Yes.

Sonia (44:49)
Is it validation? Yeah. What are they?

Yeah.

Yeah, and I look, would say anytime is a good time. Anytime, like even if you're listening to this in July, anytime

is a good time to sit with what is driving you down that road. And ultimately what is driving your ambition and does it make you happy? Does it fill you? So.

Roberta (45:17)
I love this conversation. It gives me a lot to think about.

Sonia (45:18)
That looks good.

Me too. We haven't figured it out, which is why it's called growing and growing.

Roberta (45:23)
That's fine. That is the right, that is the point of life. It

is not to get to a certain, because if I get to a certain point and I have all the answers, then what else am gonna do?

Sonia (45:31)
Tell everybody else, your job is to share the answers, Roberta, the job. All right, all right guys, thank you guys for listening. Please make sure you're following us on social, on IG, and on Facebook at Grown and Growing Podcast. You can watch this live, unedited episode on YouTube at Grown and Growing Podcast. Please share the podcast, leave us a positive review. We only wanna hear the positives. If you have a negative, you can email it.

Roberta (45:36)
Okay, who gonna pay me for that? Anyway.

Sonia (45:59)
But you gotta go find an email. Leave us a positive review on Apple or on Spotify. And thank you so much for listening and we'll see you next time. Bye.

Roberta (46:08)
Yes, thank you, thank you.

Bye.