82. Spirituality: Unpacking Tradition & Finding Your Truth Pt.1

In this wide-ranging conversation, Sonia and Roberta are joined by long-time friends Yadira and Emanuel to unpack their evolving relationships with faith and spirituality. They reflect on what it was like growing up in the church, how their beliefs have shifted over time, and the ways culture, community, and personal experience have shaped their spiritual paths. They explore the role of the Black church—both its deep cultural roots and its limitations—and why so many are rethinking what it means to be “religious” versus “spiritual.” It’s a thoughtful look at how faith grows and changes as we do.

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Transcript

Sonia (00:12)
Welcome back to the Grown and Growing podcast. It looks a little different because we have two of my favorite people joining us today, but I am Sonia And today we have Emanuel Basnight joining us again, and also Yadira Santana Dowling joining us. Hi guys.

Roberta (00:22)
And I'm Roberta.

Emanuel (00:33)
Hey, what's up y'all?

Yadira (00:33)
Hello?

Sonia (00:35)
I mean, we've

all been here before. We've all been on the podcast before together. But now Roberta is my co-host and I like to think that you guys are like my third and fourth co-hosts too.

because you've been on the podcast so many times and it's always a good time. So welcome. And one of the things that we do to kick off the podcast is talk about what we're drinking. I'm normally drinking water, but today, because we have guests, I went in the refrigerator and got my favorite drink, which is spicy mango lemonade from Trader Joe's. And that is what I will be drinking today from my mug from the store that we are boycotting now.

Roberta (01:12)
Just which one because there's so many. Them circle people.

Sonia (01:15)
Exactly, well specifically Target.

Roberta, what are you drinking?

Roberta (01:20)
Yes, yes.

Tonight I have a cava, which is a sparkling wine from Spain. There's three different sparklings you can have, three regions, and tonight we're in Spain. So yes, we carry this,

Sonia (01:32)
Mm-hmm. How is

sparkling different from champagne? where it's made? It still like champagne? Okay.

Roberta (01:37)
Just where it's made, yeah. Champagne, yeah, pretty much. Honestly, I like

Cava better than Champagne, but that's just my preference.

Sonia (01:47)
Good to know. Yadira, what are you sippin' on,

Yadira (01:50)
I am having a ruby red margarita.

Sonia (01:55)
Very nice. Emanuel?

Emanuel (01:57)
I said I was not gonna drink, but today was a long day, so I poured myself a glass of rose from Lafette. I think I pronounced that correctly, like black on rose brand. I deserved it today, yes.

Roberta (02:05)
yeah, yep, left it. Yep.

Sonia (02:10)
Very nice. You do, you do.

Roberta (02:13)
Treat yourself.

Sonia (02:15)
Yes, and all of these wines can be found on Vin Boheme right Roberta?

Roberta (02:21)
Yes, although we don't carry Lafette yet. I do know the maker and we're trying to get his wine, so yes. Actually, yeah, the wine industry, like the black and brown people in the wine industry is very close-knit, which I

Sonia (02:26)
Look at you knowing the maker. Okay, very nice.

Yadira (02:28)
nice.

Sonia (02:34)
All right. So today guys, have, I wouldn't want to have this conversation with anyone else. I, when Roberta and I were talking about, broaching this topic, you guys immediately came to mind, like we have to have them on to talk about this. And for those of you who have not seen previous podcasts with these people, we just have a really good time. We've been friends for over 20 years. We met in grad school and we just have the best conversations.

on camera and off camera. This really mimics how we talk in real life. We all get on a Zoom and we chat for about two hours. We try not to keep you that long, we'll see. But we have the best conversations. And so today we are talking about faith and spirituality. And basically, as we get older, has our relationship with our maker,

whoever that is to you, God, know, the universe, has it changed? So what is our relationship like from a spiritual, from a faith standpoint? So that's what we're talking about today.

Roberta (03:38)
Yes, all right, so let's get into it. we kind of framed the conversation kind of beginning, middle, and end, starting with our origin story, like what we grew up in, what faith, if we grew up in a faith. So I kind of want to start out there and ask the group, what faith were you raised in, if you were, and then what's your personal connection to that as a child or a young adult?

Sonia let's start with you.

Sonia (04:06)
So, for me, growing up, church was a huge part of my life, right? It was huge. We went to church every Sunday as a family, me, my two sisters, and my mom and my dad. We went to church every Sunday. My dad was a usher. My dad is still a usher.

in the church. We were in the choir. We were ushers, my sisters and myself, we were ushers in the church. It was just a huge part of our community. Like my mom is still friends with a lot of people we went to church with. My sisters still see people out in the community that we went to church with. My parents are separated now, are divorced, but my dad still attends

the same church we went to as kids. I guess he got the church.

in a divorce. So he still goes there. And I just have very, very fond memories of going to church and just having so many activities in church. We had the fall festival, which some of you may call Halloween. We had Easter speeches. We I joined the the youth chorus, the singing angels. If you're from Cleveland, you know, if you know, you know, they came to my church.

Roberta (05:04)
Yeah.

Sonia (05:16)
I very much see church as a integral part of our family's life growing up. Now I didn't always want to go to church.

because I was a kid and I mean I think that's just a part of it. But you know I definitely look back on it and I have some really fond memories of just being in that space and having it be a part of my life. Who wants to go next?

Roberta (05:36)
Nice.

Emanuel (05:39)
Go to Yadira go ahead.

Yadira (05:41)
Okay. So similar to Sonia, I grew up in the church and...

I don't know life without it. I was born in the church and in the Dominican Republic, I congregated in Church of God, which is a Pentecostal church. And when we moved to New York City, we found a Church of God to congregate. And that's the church where I essentially grew up and where my parents still go and where my parents are still leaders in the community. And similar to you, the community became our family. So I have, the friends that I grew up with are, we're part of that church. We used to go to services.

four times a week, so I lived and breathed church. For me, it was enjoyable. I have held many different positions. I was a leader since I was a little kid. I was preaching since I was like, you know, a young kid, went to mission trips, and you know, did all kinds of stuff that the church exposed us to. And it was an enjoyable part of my upbringing. And it wasn't, I didn't start questioning or being ready for something different.

until I was ready to go to college.

Sonia (06:43)
Interesting. And I should mention that I grew up Baptist. My family, we grew up in a Baptist church.

Emanuel (06:49)
I grew up AME Zion, so African Methodist, Episcopal Zion, it's like four denominations in one, I guess. ⁓ But my mother's side of the family, very like church focused. Like my mother's father was a pastor, my mother's mother's father was a pastor.

Sonia (06:57)
Hmm.

Emanuel (07:10)
a lot of his children became like reverends or whatnot have a lot of cousins who are reverends so

like grew up like in church like not a preacher's kid but definitely a preacher's like grand kid and have fond memories like piling into the Lincoln, me and my siblings and cousins and really just like going to whatever small church in northeastern North Carolina my granddaddy was assigned to like in the in the district that's where we went. But it wasn't until like I was able to decide on what type of church I wanted to visit around like

1718 when I started like questioning like the role of church and Christianity and religion like honestly Especially just being like a kid and being so close to the religion but seeing like the shortcomings of people in the religion always just kind of had me Skeptical from afar and then the older I became like the more honest, you know, I became about the skepticism

and it brought me here to this podcast episode.

Roberta (08:14)
Got it. All right. I guess I sort of had a similar but I was not as engaged as it as you all sounded is from like your childhood. So like I was baptized went to Black Baptist Church in Virginia but only really attended when I was staying with my grandmother. So in the summers I would go stay with my grandmother and she had a home church.

And it would be once a week and we would go for your traditional, you know, Sunday service. I hated it because I had to get dressed up. I had to get up early. I had to get dressed up. I had to go sit in this place and it was really loud and I didn't like that. And I had to sit there and be still and be quiet for what seemed like days. And yeah, I just didn't have any connection to it. Like I didn't, there was no

Sonia (09:05)
Mm-hmm.

Roberta (09:07)
education, it was more about like just showing up and paying you kind of like paying your respects. So nothing really like stuck for me. And then as I got older, like as I got more like teenager ish, and I wasn't going you know, every summer to stay with my grandmother the same way. And the more education I got the more

kind of similar to what Emanuel was saying, it was just like, I started to question and like the more I started to adopt my own logic and reason, I questioned even more and the less belief, quote unquote, I had in the things that were taught to me as far as religion. ⁓ I think the most impactful thing that happened during that time and when I was a teenager was my mother had a, we had a conversation and a.

Sonia (09:39)
Hmm.

Roberta (09:47)
I shared with her my questioning of it because she was she at that point she has started going back to church And I just questioned her and Her response to me was you know? religion is not for everyone At the time I was very studious. She was like educate yourself You know learn about the all the different religions of the world and if you find something that resonates with you Then go with that and if you don't then you don't have to

Sonia (09:50)
Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Roberta (10:12)
And that was

a very freeing conversation. I felt like it took a lot of pressure off of me. And yeah, I think that kind of like that openness kind of carried with me into early adulthood.

Sonia (10:24)
That's interesting, because it's interesting that you and Emanuel both started questioning church or at least the idea of church and religion early, because honestly, it never occurred to me. It did not occur to me at a young age to question, because not only did we go to church. So my family, we went to church regularly, but I wouldn't say that we were super.

Roberta (10:26)
Yeah.

Emanuel (10:29)
Hmm

Sonia (10:46)
super holy rollers, right? We didn't, my parents were not super strict. But, you know, the belief in God was important for my mom and my dad to instill in us. And so they wanted us to make sure that we had a relationship with God and we were, and I think that was just the thing too. My mom came from a very Christian, her dad was a pastor and they went to church.

every Sunday and so part of it was tradition, right? Part of it was trying to adhere to tradition that she had growing up. And then the other thing is, which is interesting to me and probably why I never questioned is because from kindergarten to ninth grade, I went to Christian schools. So first I was in Catholic school and then I went to a Christian school.

Roberta (11:26)
Mm-hmm.

Sonia (11:30)
And so my belief was shaped on Sunday, but it was also shaped during the week, right? Every week we met with nuns. When I was in Catholic school, we had to go to mass every week. Religion and God was infused into our curriculum. And so it was very much a part of my life. And when I got to ninth grade, my mom was like, you coming out because I want you to go to prom. She was like, I want you to have a real prom.

Emanuel (11:36)
it.

HAH!

Roberta (11:56)
What do you mean coming out?

there's a man like having a like a coming out like a thing.

Sonia (11:58)
coming out of Christian schools, the private school. ⁓ no, no, no, no, no.

Yadira (12:05)
I think, Sonia, I

Sonia (12:05)
This is...

Yadira (12:06)
think that something that you're saying may have very much impacted why I started questioning too, because I was raised so strict that when I was leaving my house for college, I told my mother, if this is what Christianity means, goodbye. This is my last day, the last day I live at your house.

Sonia (12:12)
Mm-hmm.

Roberta (12:26)
Mm.

Emanuel (12:26)
Hmm.

Sonia (12:26)
Wow.

Yadira (12:27)
And I grew up like wearing the skirts and being judged. But if I did anything different, no makeup, no nail polish. So to me, it's like, well, when I leave and I'm an adult and I can make those choices for myself, then I'm going to do those things. And if that means separating from Christianity, that's what I'm going to do. And I think that definitely when you grow up that restricted, it forces you to.

Sonia (12:42)
Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yadira (12:54)
be much more a critical thinker.

Sonia (12:55)
You're

right. never, that's an interesting, insight because my parents, my mom, you know, one of the reasons she wanted me to go to a public school is because she thought I was sheltered. She thought that I needed more experiences, fun experiences. she, I just, the prom conversation sticks out to me because it's just funny.

Yeah, so my mom wasn't strict and because church was such a part of my, not just my immediate family, but also my extended family, it just never felt restrictive, right? It never felt like it was

something that you know I shouldn't want. I think when I started to feel that was in college.

Emanuel (13:35)
Yeah.

Roberta (13:35)
Hmm.

Sonia (13:35)
College

is when I first started to think, because I thought I was Christian and then I got to college, I was like, well, dang, I am certainly not Christian. Because you just met people who were more immersed in the church and Christianity and religion, and I always wanted that balance. I always...

I wanted to go to the parties. wanted to go to, Morgan would have this party called Get Jiggy. I wanted to go get jiggy. And I wanted to go to church too. I'm like, I wanted to do both. Exactly. And so it's interesting that we all reach a point where you start to question. I don't even know if I would call it questioning. I just noticed that I wasn't as into...

Roberta (14:00)
Bye.

Emanuel (14:03)
You can do both. Yeah.

Sonia (14:21)
you know, the Christian faith and going to church as other people were, as my friends were.

Emanuel (14:27)
But you were thinking for yourself and to me, I feel like that's when religion counts. You know what saying? Like if you're a child, you have no say so, you know, like you're basically indoctrinated into something and you're going along with it and you're exposed to it enough to the point where you adjust. But because of that forced exposure at a young age, like when the older people get, the more distance they get from it and they do have the room to...

Sonia (14:39)
Mm-hmm.

Emanuel (14:56)
Ask questions.

But then more importantly, they have the option to decide for themselves. And I feel like that's, know, for people who are Christians and who love being Christians, like they have decided to be Christians, you know, like not necessarily being forced and restricted within it. And to me, I feel like that's the beauty of any religion. Like, you know, when you get to a point in your life, when you, you know, that you need to be governed by a

Sonia (14:57)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Roberta (15:11)
Mm-hmm.

Sonia (15:18)
Mm-hmm.

Emanuel (15:24)
belief and you feel drawn to a particular theology or framework that you connect to and that you commit to that. But a lot of, I feel like a lot of Christians and a lot of, you know, black and Latino Christians, like we've never really got that choice, you know what saying, like to decide. And then unfortunately, by the time we mature and we start to analyze and cross-reference and compare and contrast more and more, there aren't as many good

Roberta (15:25)
Hmm.

Sonia (15:41)
Mm-hmm

Yeah.

Emanuel (15:53)
examples or clear benefits to be like a devout Christian you know then there are like there are more cons and pros like sometimes depending on the day you wake up and who you listen to so you know to me is it's all about getting to a point where you can make a decision for yourself and then like believe in and acting accordingly

Sonia (16:12)
Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think going to college for me was also a catalyst for me to start to look at religion or at least Christianity in a more thoughtful way. I mean, I went to HBCU. We look, you are getting a history lesson there that you did not get when you went to your high school. It's more in depth. is solely focused on your focus on the black experience. And when you start to learn that,

you start to meet other people. That was another thing. I grew up in Cleveland, Ohio, and there's some diversity there for sure, but my world opened up going to college, and you met so many different people from so many different places. it was just, I think when you commune with people who are different from you, you get to see that they're not.

the boogeyman or the thing that people have described to you that may have been negative. And so I think that also has a lot to do with it in having those perspectives brought to me about how...

You know, we came from Africa, but we are Christian and all these people are Christian. How we all become Christians? You know, how did that happen? and just learning about the origins of that. think, you know, again, you just, you're like, okay. That's interesting. You start to take in that information and process it.

Yadira (17:32)
I think my college experience helped me separate a relationship with God from religion.

Sonia (17:38)
Mm-hmm.

Yadira (17:40)
Because to your point, it was the first time that I was around other Christians, meaning non-Hispanic Christians. So I was able to see how Black people worshiped. I was able to see how white people worshiped, all Christian, right? And I saw the different rules, the different traditions. That's actually when I first read the Bible in English, because I had grown up reading it in Spanish. So at first it was difficult for me. Like I had verses memorized and now I got to be like, wait,

How do you say this? And I was able to see, this is what brought me back actually after I had left my house, is that I didn't need all these rules to have a relationship with God. That I could have that on my own.

Sonia (18:21)
Is the Spanish Bible isn't a different translation than the English Bible? it? It's just...

Yadira (18:27)
It's like, think

about, we have our version of the King James is our reina Valera. So it is that old Spanish, if you will. Yes.

Sonia (18:32)
Okay.

okay.

All right, so now that we have some foundation for everybody of how we grew up, and I think, I hope everybody can see how different everybody's experience was. It's the same, but a little bit different. We're going to talk about spirituality in the present day and to kind of anchor us in that conversation.

We wanted to talk about some research that Roberta and I found. So Roberta, do you want to go first with what you found and kind of walk us through that?

Roberta (19:08)
Sure, I think one overarching stat that came up fairly quickly when looking at specifically at black Americans in the US population as a whole. So about 97 % of adult black Americans believe in God or a higher power compared to 90 % of American adults generally.

and 59 % consider religion quote unquote very important in their lives. And that 54 % consider belief in God necessary to be immoral and to be moral and to have good values. So to me, mean, well first of all, that's a really high percentage of people who are religious, consider themselves on some level religious.

and also kind of high as far as like its level of importance in people's lives.

Sonia (20:08)
Yeah, I'm actually not shocked by that.

mostly because if you're in the United States, and you grew up when we grew up, right, as we're all Gen Xers here, I think going to church was just a part of culture, right? And so you get instilled in that pretty early. And I don't know, I just feel like I have nothing to prove this at all, but I just feel like...

Black people are just connected to a higher source and a higher power. just, I don't know, this is probably making a huge generalization, but I feel like there is something in our DNA that connects us spiritually to a higher power. And we just are seeking to find out exactly what that higher power is for us. How do we want to define that higher power for ourselves? But I just feel like black people are a spiritual people.

And I think it's also because of our history of slavery, right? What we've been through, what our people have been through in this country, right? Roberta, you say our conversations always come back slavery in some way, but it is because of that history that I also think there is an inherent reliance on faith that you needed to have in order to

Roberta (21:12)
Take it back, come back to slavery.

Sonia (21:23)
endure what we endured as a people.

Roberta (21:26)
Yeah, mean, okay, so another piece of the research, and this came from Pew Research on faith and religion among black Americans, was that today most black adults say that they rely on prayer to help make major decisions. And they view opposing racism as essential to their religious faith. So to me, kind of, I mean, it's like a, I don't know, coping mechanism.

And then do people, it makes me question, are people using religion and faith, or is that a part of their faith, is coping with the hardships.

Emanuel (21:56)
Well,

yes, but then I also feel like it's important to note that like I feel like in the same study, the only reason I know this because I've been doing research for a book that I'm writing, but they also show the difference.

the difference of like religious sort of a utilization in black people compared to like white Christians and like black Christians specifically see religion as a means to combat and overcome like racial injustice and violence. So like that within itself just tells you like, yeah, Jesus is kind of a coping mechanism, has been, for like very specific reasons that also like colors how black people relate to Christianity.

Sonia (22:26)
Mm-hmm.

Emanuel (22:39)
versus like white people. So I know we're gonna get to this later where we recommend books and stuff but like one of my favorite creators and commentators out now Dee Danielle Thomas she goes by the Unfit Christian on

Sonia (22:41)
Mm-hmm

Emanuel (22:53)
social media and I was lucky enough to like do a little book talk with her interview her about her book the Day God Saw Me as Black and She has a great like juxtaposition of the juxtaposition of that in her book and I'm gonna butcher it but basically it's like, know the suffering Jesus that black people and people of color elevate versus like the like the powerful or like, you know Jesus of salvation that like white people I elevate and like pray towards and

Sonia (23:19)
Yeah.

Roberta (23:21)
Mm-hmm.

Emanuel (23:23)
in.

Her point wasn't to say one is right and one is wrong, but just to draw like the stark contrast between like how people and communities bring their experiences like to their religion and they leverage religion for very in very specific and nuanced ways. So like in this case, like Christianity, religion is absolutely a coping mechanism to deal with racial injustice and violence in this world, not even this country in this world.

Sonia (23:41)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah,

that's true.

Yadira (23:51)
And I think, mean, answer your question, Roberta, too, I think the church has played such a critical role in the movements historically that I think people cannot separate the church as a community institution that has helped bring these movements about versus that faith and trust in Jesus, right? Like it is intertwined and that has helped the movements, especially here in the U.S.

Sonia (23:59)
Yeah.

Roberta (24:11)
Mm-hmm.

Sonia (24:17)
Yeah, that's exactly what I was going to say. I mean, when you think about the civil rights movement, most of those activities, most of the planning happened in the church, right? Centered around the church. The leaders came from the church. When they wanted to reach people, they went to the church. And so,

Roberta (24:17)
Yeah.

Emanuel (24:29)
Mm-hmm.

Sonia (24:37)
I think it is hard to separate faith from the experience because, like you said, Yadira, they are so intertwined.

Emanuel (24:45)
but it's also difficult to separate like.

It is, it's very convenient to talk about religion and faith and spirituality for like large groups of people. But when you take it to like a individual perspective, it gets pretty tricky. And one of the very like worthy criticisms of the black church is like it, as an institution, it's done a very poor job of taking care of like the marginalized within marginalized communities. So like, you know, I still remember days when women weren't

allowed to be in a pulpit. Like that was very much a part of like the church that I grew up in. Like women had, at some churches, absolutely. And like you sure couldn't be like openly gay in a church. You know what I'm saying? Like, look, so there were like so many opportunities for...

Sonia (25:18)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I'm probably still today.

Emanuel (25:34)
the black church specifically to rewrite and reconstitute an elevated version of Christianity and it just kind of dropped the ball. So, you know, in addition to the experiences that the church has been able to drive and create over the years, like there's also some very like valid criticisms of the institution of the black church that I feel like we can't ignore.

Sonia (25:58)
Yeah, and it's not just the black church. To me, it's church overall. Yeah.

Emanuel (26:00)
It knows. It's church in general. That's right. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, I ain't been to the Korean church, so I don't know how they operate. that's why I didn't speak on They probably copying black church, looking at how K-pop is going.

Roberta (26:06)
Hahaha

Sonia (26:08)
He's probably on the podcast having the same conversation.

my God. Well that's interesting because it actually, this last stat that we're gonna go through is talking about the...

the relationship between the black church and black people today. And after COVID, the black churches really saw a decline in attendance, like in-person attendance. And the research said that most people stopped going altogether or they started to go virtually online.

And another interesting fact from Pew Research, the same article, is that Black Americans are the most religious, non-religious group in the country. Meaning they are religious, but they are unaffiliated, right? And Americans overall are generally, are mostly unaffiliated with a religion.

Emanuel (26:53)
Yeah.

Sonia (27:03)
So, I mean, does that surprise you guys? I mean, just thinking about where we are today.

Yadira (27:09)
I'm gonna say no. It does not surprise me for a couple of reasons. Like the pandemic and the virtual movement, right? It allowed people to listen to pastors that otherwise they wouldn't have access to, right? So you only had what your neighborhood was serving and you just had to pick the best of that. Again, I think with a...

Roberta (27:10)
Yeah.

Emanuel (27:10)
I'm gonna say no to.

Sonia (27:21)
Mm-hmm.

Yadira (27:28)
educated, much more educated community and people, you are going to try to find people that speak to that educated brain of yours that is used to critical thinking. So I think that the pandemic made that easier and that's why you see the virtual. The other part of that, personally, is there's a lot of other stuff that happened in the pandemic. George Floyd and the church had an opportunity

Sonia (27:40)
Mm-hmm.

Yadira (27:51)
to demonstrate that it was still about activism, that it was still about the community and that it cared about the people, the congregants. And at that point, in my experience, our neighborhood church decided to say, we're not an activist church. I never stepped foot in there again. Right? And I was very discerning and I have been since to where do I take myself and my children to? Because if you're not an activist church, then I don't even understand

Roberta (28:08)
Hmm... Hmm.

Emanuel (28:09)
out.

Yadira (28:21)
your meaning of church because that's not how I grew up and that's not what I expect.

Emanuel (28:25)
And Jesus was an activist. So what are you talking about?

Yadira (28:27)
Correct,

correct. Right? So I think that that's why people were like, no, like these people are over here playing for the people inside the four walls. And that is not at all the Christianity that I would want to be associated with.

Sonia (28:29)
Yeah, it's

Yeah. It's interesting because, okay, so where are you guys now with religion, spirituality? How would you describe yourselves today, Roberta? Let's start with you.

Roberta (28:42)
Hmm.

Emanuel (28:42)
Yeah.

Roberta (28:55)
I would say,

yeah, I would say I'm, this has become a popular phrase, but I'm spiritual but not religious. So what does that even mean, right? Well, first and foremost, I don't associate or I don't subscribe to a particular established religion. And there's reasons why, well, and honestly, I just don't feel alignment with any of them.

Sonia (29:04)
Mm-hmm.

Roberta (29:16)
I don't feel aligned with my personal values and beliefs. So that's one thing. I would say I'm more spiritual because of different things that have happened through my adult and more like my recent life that has opened me up both intellectually and emotionally to, I don't know what to call it, like the spirit world.

life beyond what we're living. So I do believe in reincarnation. I do believe in spirits and ancestors and other energies beyond what's in any written religious book. I do believe in these things. And that has come directly from my experiences, from people from...

One of the big impactful things was my partner dying of cancer and being very close to him and trying to understand his death and...

Honestly, I've had conversations with mediums that I actually genuinely believed were communicating different things. And so it was like a combination of different things that are closely intertwined with my personal life experiences, my personal values, that also in doing research and just, you

seeing what else is out there. I've learned that there's other people that actually think like me and have experienced similar things. I'm like, well, maybe there's something there. So I've been leaning more into that. So it's come from a more personal space of what I believe versus adopting any kind of established thing, if that makes sense.

Emanuel (30:43)
Hmm. I can relate. If I had to say, like, from, like, religious or spiritual, like, Lord, mercy.

Sonia (30:44)
So what?

Emanuel (30:50)
Since my mom passed away in 2012, I've probably done three whole cycles of answering this question. There was a point when I was ready to box Jesus, because I was just like, you owe black people some answers. We the most praying in this church, attending, tithing. You know what saying?

Roberta (31:02)
Yeah.

Sonia (31:04)
You

Emanuel (31:10)
Of segment in the united states and we literally still have grandmothers in 2020 praying for the same things that great great great great great great great grandmothers were paying for it like 1880, you know i'm saying so like where's the progress like all of this Equity that we built with Jesus has to pay out somehow, you know in some ways so like i've gone from very uh, i've gone from being like mad with Jesus to being reflective about how

Sonia (31:21)
Mm-hmm

Roberta (31:29)
Hmph.

Emanuel (31:39)
the religion I was taught was good for the person I was when I was introduced to it, but then also turning a corner and accepting the fact that like I just had some spiritual experiences that don't necessarily fit within the constructs of Christianity that I refuse to ignore. So...

I would say from a religious framework perspective, like I still follow like Christian theology, like I believe in God, but I don't believe God is just a man. You know, I say the Lord's Prayer, like, you know, whenever I feel compelled to. I go to church. I use a lot of Christian theology and framework in my own spiritual practice as a Hoodoo practitioner. But I have also.

identify the shortcomings of the Protestant American version of Christianity that we've been indoctrinated in. And I work very hard to center African traditional views, philosophies, theologies of principles, like in my beliefs. And that's why for me, it comes down to being

a believer and practitioner whose individual spiritual experiences are validated and needing to keep distance from the invalidation or invalidating dating aspects of like organized religion because that's what I of realized like I just had to kind of jump off the off of Christianity because to be a practicing Christian like

you kind of have to agree to invalidate, you know, like some things about the spiritual world, about the religious world, and not just like, you know, not believing the ancestors, but like there are Christians who are walking around who literally just like my religion is right in anything outside of what I believe is wrong. And it's just like, why is that a part of your belief? You know what saying? Like, like let's, let's kind of check that. And to me, I, the way my like,

Roberta (33:12)
Mm-hmm. ⁓

Right. ⁓

Yadira (33:26)
Mm.

Roberta (33:30)
Right.

Emanuel (33:36)
life was cracked open, like I didn't have a need or want to be associated with anything that made me feel that way. And it also would position me to like devalue other people's beliefs. So I would say I am a Hoodoo practitioner, but absolutely using a Christian framework to standardize my spiritual practices.

Sonia (33:51)
Mm-hmm.

is hoodoo a religion?

Emanuel (34:02)
So, Hoodoo is, it has all the makings of being an organized religion. It's just not organized. So, it's unlike Santeria in Cuba, and Ifa in Nigeria, and even someone say Voodoo in like Haiti and New Orleans.

Hoodoo does not operate from having like, you know, one priest or priestess, you know, and like having like one house and like one like sort of governing body and even that's not an apples to apples comparison because there's a lot of room for interpretation within those.

Sister religions that I that I mentioned too but the only reason why I say Hoodoo is not technically a religion is because Like there's no governing body, you know I'm saying but to be a religion I feel like you need like

Sonia (34:48)
Mm-hmm.

Emanuel (34:50)
I forgot this like some type of like central of some tenant like religious tenant you need some Like a mission like you need very technical things for the United States of America to say This is a religion and Hoodoo have all of this stuff? A lot of it is Christian a lot of it is based on like African heritage the West Central African religious and spiritual practices that were brought over to the United States But it just hasn't been packaged that way. So that's a long way of saying

Sonia (35:16)
Mm-hmm.

Emanuel (35:19)
Technically, no, but there are a lot of people, and even in your area, in the DMV area, there's a Chesapeake Hoodoo Society, and they have a definition for a hoodoo that I love and I'll always say, and they say, hoodoo is the ethno-religion of Black Americans. And it's a religious practice and tradition for a specific ethnic group.

And then after the group just happens to be black Americans. So from them, it's a religion and majority of the people treat it as such, but don't get caught up in saying what it is and what it isn't. Cause it's more important to be a hoodoo than to do hoodoo. Like how we were sort of brought up to do church, but then not be Christian. You know what saying? So that.

Roberta (35:56)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Sonia (36:02)
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So

Roberta (36:04)
You

Sonia (36:07)
I'm sure we'll dive more into that, but I want to give Yadira, how would you describe where you are presently?

Yadira (36:14)
describe myself as being a red-letter Christian, meaning I am a Christian guided by the words of Jesus primarily. And to me that means that a message of love and being Christ-centered and being a living and breathing example of Christ's love here on earth is what is most important. It is what I teach my children and what I hope that they learn. That does not have to be learned or practiced inside a church.

There are many ways that we expose and practice that in our household. And I should also say that my husband is a pastor. So we do congregate that is part of our lives too, but we are clear that that is only one aspect of Christianity, not the only.

Sonia (36:43)
Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Okay, so for me, I feel like I am definitely in a transition period. In a lot of ways, I feel like I am in my infancy around Christianity, and I say that because I have so many questions. I definitely believe in the tenets of Christianity, that there is one God, that Jesus was here, he is the Messiah, that kind of thing. He died for our sins and all of that. I believe that.

And I, but I also have so many questions about why things happen the way that they happen. I don't know that I am keen on. ⁓

you know, finding a Baptist church, right? If I was to join a church, it would be non-denominational. I do not go to church regularly. And I'm being honest, it is something that I want to do. I want to go to church. I want to find a church home. It bothers me that my kids don't go to church. But I've been to a lot of churches and I just haven't found the church that I feel like I want to call home.

and raise my family there and have community with. Mega churches are, I'm sure there are a lot of smaller churches. I've visited a small church, look, I don't want to go to a five person church, okay? I want to be able to come in the back if I want, talk when I want. I don't want that. I also don't want a mega church. I go to these new churches and it is, the experience is so different than what I'm used to. The music is different.

Emanuel (38:29)
Yeah.

Sonia (38:31)
Lord, I'm like, my God, it's like a light show. The songs, I don't know these songs. Where's the choir? Why is it four people singing? You singing a song I don't know. It's not gospel. I can't sing alone. It's like soft rock Christian, but they black.

Roberta (38:37)
you

Emanuel (38:41)
I hate it. I

Yadira (38:42)
There's no diversity. There's no diversity. It's only rock.

Emanuel (38:45)
No. Ugh.

praise music

Roberta (38:49)
How did

it migrate to that? I'm curious. Like I've never really, never, not really, yeah.

Emanuel (38:53)
So I don't know

exactly like how, but I do remember being cognizant of like when the shift happened because, because I listened to a lot of gospel music. I was like, I grew up in choirs. Yeah, like was in a high school gospel choir, Northeast high school, like, you know, one second place in the nation around like, you know, 1995. But I remember being in Atlanta and

Roberta (39:01)
Yeah.

Sonia (39:01)
I do

remember.

I love gospel music, yeah.

Mm.

Emanuel (39:20)
really listened to Kierra Sheard, like Karen Clark Sheard's daughter, of the Clark sisters, and like just really liking that like funky R &B Detroit, you know, type of like, you know, black church gospel type of vibe around like 2005. And then by the time our next album dropped in 2006, the whole vibe kind of changed. It was all like.

At the time I knew it to be white folks praise music because I was going to like this non-denominational church called Mount Perrin in Atlanta and it was great but like I didn't go there for the music. Like I honestly went there for like the pastor because like he was great but the music sucked and that's when I was like well let me listen to somebody else and I just like was just like why is everybody making this like slow white

Sonia (39:46)
Yes.

Mm-hmm

Yeah.

Yes.

Emanuel (40:06)
praise music. So I feel like around 2005, 2006 is when it started and it's been sucking since.

Sonia (40:11)
You know-

just feel like they started off as the praise team. They were like the warm up team, right? Before everybody got in the church, right? Before the choir came out, before church started, they like came out to warm up the crowd and it was four of them and they sang. And then they just slowly replaced the choir. Like what a choir at? There's no choir marching in anymore. Now they are the people that sing. And so you notice that shift and I think...

Emanuel (40:19)
Yeah, before the choir. Yep.

Yep.

Yeah.

Sonia (40:41)
And maybe it has something to do with those stats that we talked about earlier where people are, you know, kind of moving away from the church. So maybe they're, because we had a youth choir, a men's choir, a women's choir, mass choir, a senior choir. Right, we had all these choirs and I guess if...

Emanuel (40:52)
That's right. That's right. See you quiet. Yep. Mass quiet. Yep. Yep.

Sonia (41:01)
you know, people are moving away from the church. maybe you don't have time to go to five rehearsals, right? And so I think that the combination of, you know, having these praise team that can sing, you know they can sing, you know they're gonna show up. It's only four of them, right? They gonna show up.

versus having to have a full choir to fill Sunday. And so it probably transitioned just by way of just not having enough people. But this actually raises a question for me about people turning away from the church or not going to church or going to virtual church even. Is there something lost in that? Is there a sense of community that is lost in the black community specifically?

when you don't have a place of worship or when you're not going to, when you remove that entity from, from the culture in the way that it was.

Roberta (41:56)
I think so. I and I wasn't even that ingrained in the church. think, but for me, it was more about community and safety and refuge. Like those are the things that stood out for me from church when I was growing up. And I feel like we've lost a lot of that, a lot of the tradition, a lot of the community tradition.

Sonia (42:16)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Roberta (42:22)
for years and even when I decided like, maybe religion's not a thing for me, but if it's your thing, great. And my thing is, whatever keeps the fellowship and the community and all those things tight, I'm all for it. But I feel like even that has been lost.

Sonia (42:33)
Yeah.

Yeah. And I think people who go to church regularly would probably say, y'all know what y'all talk about because y'all don't go to church. My church is a community. And I think what people say when they go to mass churches, like when, because I don't want to go to a mega church, they're like, no, when you start to go, it'll get real small. Like.

Emanuel (42:35)
It's hard.

Roberta (42:40)
Fair.

Sonia (42:51)
You know, have to go join, join all the separate groups. Like it is, I literally need a book to try to dissect how to join a church, right? Cause it's classes now. It's small groups. Yeah.

Emanuel (43:03)
and some churches you get a book in membership orientation and they tell you how.

Sonia (43:08)
It's orientation. It's almost corporate. It's very corporate in the way that it is run. And I think there's some positives and some negatives to that. But yeah, I think there is a loss of community when you don't have that.

Emanuel (43:12)
is very corporate.

I think it's some... Lord. I feel like the people who are vested, they don't lose anything in by attending virtual church. But I feel like the people who decided to walk away, like I know plenty of like, you know, quote unquote, former Christians who still to this day will...

Sonia (43:36)
Yeah.

Emanuel (43:44)
turn on some Abbotina Walker, you know what saying, or some like Shirley Seas or Mahalia Jackson and just be like, let me get a quick hit of this, you know, real quick, because like my spirit need to hear some gospel music. And I feel like in terms of like whether virtual church is a loss or not, ⁓

Sonia (43:47)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

you

Emanuel (44:04)
I feel like it's like a supplement, but it's not like, you know, the real thing. You know, like it's not like getting your nutrients from eating the actual food that is nutritious. Like you're just taking like, you know, some ground up B12 that's been put in like a pectin capsule or whatever. So it's like, don't feel like, I feel like what we went wrong was like some people started treating virtual church, like church, like trying to substitute virtual church for actual church. And that's where like things just kind of left.

Sonia (44:14)
Mm-hmm.

Roberta (44:22)
you

Hmm...

Sonia (44:31)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. But

it's interesting because I went to church with my friend. It's a big church. Now, I don't know how this works. They have seven different campuses across Maryland, like in the South, but they still only have one pastor.

Yadira (44:33)
it.

Sonia (44:50)
And so we, now they're local. This is a local church, local to Baltimore, local to the Baltimore area. And so we went to church and she was like, we're gonna watch him on the screen. Ma'am, excuse me. He's not gonna be there. Where is he? Why come? I could have watched on. I could have watched on. So it was interesting. And that's what I mean by church has changed. I'm like.

Emanuel (44:50)
my goodness. ⁓

Yeah.

Yadira (45:06)
Bye.

Sonia (45:14)
Yeah, it's people here and there is a, you know, an MC that comes out to, you know, talk to you and to follow up on his message and to open up the doors of the church or what I would deem as, they don't say that anymore. I don't know what they say, but to open up the doors of the church, like who wants to give their...

Emanuel (45:30)
Now they lockin' the doors, trying

Roberta (45:33)
Well.

Emanuel (45:33)
to keep people in today. Today they they offer.

Sonia (45:34)
Right, right. I was like, it's just so different

and I know that's not every church that is not every experience But that was just a recent experience that I have where I do think I think if I were to go to church like Yadira said I I could not leave my blackness at the door. It is not gonna be left at the door. I expect that my church

Emanuel (45:39)
Yeah.

Sonia (45:56)
would not only address issues that are impacting black people, right? Racism, know, racism in all its forms. ⁓ But also, I expect that you are uplifting the community as well. Like you are feeding the poor, to help the homeless. You are trying to teach financial literacy. Like there is an upliftment that I feel like the church needs to do.

Emanuel (46:13)
Yeah.

Roberta (46:24)
was gonna ask you, so at that point, and it went along with what you said about being annoyed that you went into one of the campuses and the actual pastor wasn't there, but then also, what would you, how do I put it? It's not a dialogue, right? You're not having a conversation. So what is it about having the pastor there that made it a different experience for you?

Sonia (46:40)
Mm-hmm.

Well, you know, I don't know. I'm just used to seeing a human. To me, it's a difference of I could have watched you on my big screen TV at home. I didn't have to. Yeah.

Yadira (46:53)
I can also chime in here because I think it

goes back to Sonia's earlier comment about what we have lost with virtual. When you walked into a church before and the choir helped usher you into the presence of God, you felt something. That was therapy for people that had had a tough week. And with the songs and the uplifting of your soul, also came the message to feed your soul, to help you get through another week.

Those things, when it becomes entertainment for the people that sit there for one hour on Sundays, those things are lost. It doesn't feel that way. And now, like Sonia says, if I gotta watch this on the screen, I might as well stay in the comfort of my own home. Like, why am I, I gotta get three kids ready and be there on time? No thanks.

Emanuel (47:24)
Hmm. Hmm.

Yeah.

Sonia (47:29)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Emanuel (47:35)
I don't blame you.

Sonia (47:40)
And

also, there is not an expectation that I'm gonna go up and talk to the pastor after church. But pastors used to stay and fellowship with people, meet the people of their congregation. And look, I'm not saying that what is happening is wrong. It's just not what I'm used to. And I would like to know that the pastor is in the building of the church that I go to. That's all, I just wanna see you. On the stage, there is the call and response.

is different. You know, I don't care how many times you say look at your neighbor. If you over there in at the BWI campus or I'm at this campus

It just feels different. Are you telling me to do that 700 times because you're not here? And you're trying to say, here's this human connection you need, your neighbor next to you. So I think, it's not for me, but to this church's credit, they have a lot of members that go there. They engage with a lot of young people. They engage with a lot of couples and men. I think they're doing a lot of positive things.

The structure of the church isn't for me, but that doesn't mean I disagree with, you know, exactly what they're doing.

Emanuel (48:51)
I'm with you. I don't need my church, you know, if I decide to go to Actually, like I went to church a couple of weeks ago and I did not like it for a lot of reasons that we discussed. The music sucked and like the congregation was whack and the preacher was all right, but I just kind of felt like I was like just kind of watching like a Broadway play and like not hearing like a sermon being delivered. ⁓ And that's just me, you know, but like.

Roberta (49:00)
Mm-hmm.

Sonia (49:09)
Mm-hmm.

Emanuel (49:13)
man, like I'm kind of rooting for church to get back to what made it great for a lot of people. Like I'm not, you know, trying to like denigrate it and write it off, but I do kind of feel like mega churches have ruined church. mega churches have ruined like people's like spiritual connection to like religion. Like I remember being in Atlanta and I was at Bishop Eddie Long's church and he wasn't there, but they were trying to raise money for the pastor anniversary. And I don't know, the deputy pastor, whatever.

was just like pass those plates around because jet fuel is not cheap.

Roberta (49:46)
Wait, what?

Sonia (49:47)
Jet

fuel. Well, here's the thing. The church has always been, the church has always had a beggin' benny philosophy. They always been beggin'. But I think the bigger the church is, the less you gotta beg. Like, you got all these people up in here, why you still lockin' the doors and keepin' people in and pass the plate around again with 3,000 people? Like, that's not enough?

Emanuel (49:50)
Bish I've had a long head of it.

Roberta (49:54)
Yeah.

Emanuel (49:56)
Yeah.

Sonia (50:12)
And so I guess my question to you guys is if you are interested, so Emanuel, you talked about going to church. Yadira you're a first lady, even though you don't...

Yadira (50:20)
I don't like

that.

Sonia (50:24)
I'll just, I said that on purpose.

Emanuel (50:26)
She ain't no first lady. She a city girl, she ain't no first lady.

Roberta (50:26)
She rebukes

Yadira (50:30)
I do not use that title.

I do not need to be worshipped like that.

Sonia (50:33)
What? Yeah.

So if you were interested in going to church, what kind of pastor, Emanuel, you said make it good, what are you looking for in a pastor or a church and or a church?

Emanuel (50:48)
So the last church that I attended regularly was West Point Missionary Baptist Church at 36 and Cottage in Chicago where Reverend, I know, where Reverend LB Jakes was a pastor. LB Jakes, Reverend Jakes is still cool. I still see his posts when I'm on Facebook every now and then. But I would need a pastor

Sonia (50:58)
We got know the address.

Emanuel (51:11)
Reverend male or female who is more concerned with being a representative of God for people as opposed to being a celebrity spokesperson of God for fans. And I feel like a lot of church now is just like they run like fan clubs or like sororities and fraternities and stuff. And like to me, as someone who's into fraternity, like I don't want that when I think about my

Sonia (51:20)
Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Yadira (51:31)
Mm-hmm.

Emanuel (51:38)
very intimate connection to God, especially in the context of how I've been believing.

Sonia (51:39)
Right.

Mm-hmm.

Emanuel (51:44)
and approaching my spirituality in the past 10 years, I would much rather hear from someone who takes the job of being God's representative to people very seriously and prioritizes the human aspect of religion and not the religious aspect of humanity. And it sounds like super semantic, but in like splitting hairs, but to me, that's why I feel like a lot of people are like walked away from church.

Roberta (52:06)
Mm-mm.

Emanuel (52:10)
because like my granddaddy used to always he used to tell us two things all the time in church. He used to say everybody gotta know God for themselves. So even from a young age like he sort of drilled it in us that like there's like yes you can go to church but your relationship with God is still your responsibility to build. You can't outsource that to your pastor or outsource that to anyone else. So that's one and then two he will always tell us we all fall short of the grace of God.

like we all do and like not we all used to you know so we all we bout to but like it is like a constant stream of just like falling short of God's grace but still being extended that grace anyway because like that's how grace operates and I like the pastors who operate in that you know I'm saying like type of like bang like

Sonia (52:37)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Emanuel (52:57)
I don't need you. And I feel like it's kind of what we were talking about earlier in terms of like, you know, getting back to church, what makes, you know, what made church great and all that stuff. I need that type of like centerpiece, but also with the different elements of church that made it ritualistic and not just like an obligation. know I'm saying? And then to Yadira's point, like we need the choir because like, you know, if you see in sinners, like you don't have to absolutely understand the importance of like

music and how it like sets the tone for like physical interaction with like the spiritual. I don't get that from a paid praise team. I'm sorry. I don't get that from pantomime, you know what saying? Like all of that like church ballet stuff they be doing. Like I don't get that. I just don't. I don't. So praise dancing, yes. Like, you know, and I'm not, I'm not yucking anybody's, you know, yum. You know what saying?

Sonia (53:42)
timing? It's praise dancing. How we know, how we know, we know.

Yadira (53:49)
I used to praise dance.

Roberta (53:50)
I remember that. I think we attended.

Emanuel (53:54)
Let the spirit use you. Let the spirit use you how it sees fit.

Sonia (53:54)
yeah, we did.

Emanuel (53:58)
But I feel like church being a sum of all of its like parts, you know what saying? Like complimenting each other and like being purposefully integrated. like that. That would get me back in church. So like, you know, a real ass nigga for a pastor, know I'm saying? Somebody who know what it's like. That's why LBJ's.

Sonia (54:21)
You want a Ryan Coolgler

pastor?

Emanuel (54:23)
I'm telling you, the

last thing I'll be saying I remember is from the church I remember attending in Chicago where he will say one Sunday, I'm a Christian but I ain't no punk. You know what saying? I was like, I like that. You know what I'm saying? Because we're not turning cheeks over here. You know what I'm saying? So just off the top of my head, those things would get me back into church tomorrow.

Yadira (54:35)
Mm.

Sonia (54:40)
Yeah.

Roberta (54:50)
So I kind of want to take this in a slightly different direction, maybe a little bit, not entirely, but because I feel like, well, I kind of feel left out of the conversation because I just don't do church, but I do have...

Sonia (55:01)
Yeah.

Roberta (55:04)
in my life, God, in my faith and the things that I believe in that realm do take up a relatively large place in my life. It influences how I move through the world. It influences decisions I make from large to small. And so I kind of wanted to get into that a little bit more. I feel like what I'm taking away, what I'm listening in this conversation is the role of community.

Sonia (55:30)
Mm-hmm.

Roberta (55:31)
And that part coming through loud and clear and is less about the faith and the God part. And so I want to kind of get into that a little bit more because I feel like that is kind of the equalizer, regardless if you're of any religion or spirituality or anything, is just like, is it in your personal life and how is whatever faith motivating you or helping you make decisions?

Sonia (55:51)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I think that, you know, when it comes, think my separation or me not going to church all these years, right? I think that God still plays a huge presence in my life, right? I write letters to God. I like, when I journal, it's usually me asking God.

Here God, here's all these things. Please give me some clarity, please give me some direction. Please guide me. And I do think God talks to you. He talks to me, right? I don't know, he talked to y'all, but he talked to me. God, I do feel like I hear God. I don't know, it's just this knowing, right? It's either that.

Yadira (56:20)
thing.

Sonia (56:40)
voice or that thing that is either telling you that you are going in the right direction or that is telling you to have faith or it's checking you in the moment. Like when you want to go left and he's like, you know, you shouldn't be, you right, you right. I should, I should, you know, calm down and, and, chill out for a little bit. I think

When it comes regardless of whether I go to church or not, I think there is a desire and a curiosity for me to read through the Bible again, to understand it for myself. while I have this curiosity, is a bit intimidating to think about reading the Bible from cover to cover.

Emanuel (57:24)
Yes.

Sonia (57:25)
And so, but that is something that I want because I wanna know, like the Bible, I've read the Bible, going to a Christian school, I memorized the books of the Bible, people always have verses, but I've never actually.

sat down and read it from cover to cover. And I definitely haven't done that in the adult version of myself with my experiences, my wisdom, my questions. And there is a curiosity of what am I going, what is going to be unveiled to me about God? Will some of the questions that I have about faith, about God and how he operates and how this world is

Emanuel (57:43)
Yeah.

Sonia (58:03)
is how this world operates. Will that some of that be answered or will I walk away with more questions? And is this existence about questions? Because I, my growing up now, being an adult, I think I used to see God as a authoritarian, like better do this to keep me in line. And now what?

Roberta (58:24)
The whole God-fearing

thing, that's just weird to me, but whatever.

Sonia (58:25)
Yes, God

fearing, but now it's not so much God fearing for me. And it used to be that you questioning God was a sin in itself and it was terrible and you could not do it. And it's like, well, damn, how I get these questions answered? You know, like, what am supposed to do with this?

Roberta (58:38)
you

Then why were we even given the ability to question if it's so wrong and did like child? No. Right.

Sonia (58:48)
Exactly. And you bring in discernment. God gave us the ability to

discern. And there's a part of me that feels like he gave us this discernment so that we can be closer to him so that we can understand him. So we can ask the questions. Now don't know if I'm going to all the answers, but to Emanuel's earlier point, it's like, well, why do you make me black and put me through all this? Like, what is it all for? Roberta, we talked about this in our, in a previous episode where it's like, you think, does everything happen for a reason? And I'm like, yes and

But, because there's so much suffering, I would hate, that I can't find reason for with my human brain. And so, if God, that's true. Well, why did God make white people then? I mean, you know.

Emanuel (59:25)
I mean, a lot of the suffering is due to white people. let's just like take the... Now that's the question. That's

Roberta (59:31)
Because we need suffering. So, okay,

Emanuel (59:33)
the question.

Roberta (59:33)
the way my belief system is set up and the way, I feel like my spirituality is very intertwined with my value system. And I strongly believe that all of this, like we are here.

Sonia (59:41)
Mm-hmm.

Roberta (59:46)
to evolve our souls. We are here to, and all these human experiences are here to test us, I can't use the vernacular of, and for us to learn more about ourselves and each other so that we can, our souls can evolve and grow. To what? To get closer to.

God, if you will, know? Energetically, I feel like we're already there, we're already a part of that, we're all like little disparate pieces of that whole. But I feel like, yeah, like it's to the point where you're saying like, what are we here for? Like, what are we doing? Is this all for reason? Absolutely. It's not necessarily for us to fully understand. I don't think we should or, you know, will ever. No.

Sonia (1:00:06)
Mm-hmm.

I don't think we could, I don't think our brains could even

process that. Or you do, okay.

Emanuel (1:00:29)
See, I don't know. I don't know if I agree with that. Yeah,

Roberta (1:00:32)
Yeah.

Emanuel (1:00:32)
because mainly, and this is just me party one, you know what I'm saying? I realize, and now I'm like this new, you know what I'm saying, like view of things is that...

We, religion is great for organized like actions and behaviors and like, you know, rules and beliefs and stuff. What religion falls short, especially Christianity, in my experience, is that it's so focused on the collective and organized side of things that it completely ignores the interpersonal and individualistic side of believing. And that's why today,

Sonia (1:00:52)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Emanuel (1:01:13)
We have a lot of people who are just like, I'm not religious, but I'm spiritual. But you kind of need both. Like they're two sides of like the same coin. Cause there's even, you you sit with old folks enough, like, and they start talking about being a Christian. A lot of what they say does lean more to being spiritual on being on your personal walk with Jesus. You know I'm saying? Like going to your prayer closet, like those, those fit into the context of religion, but they lean more on the end of the personal and like

spiritual side of being a Christian. So.

To me, and I like that's how you find the answers. Like you won't find personal answers in the context of broader, organized, collective church. You may have the framework, you may have context, you may even have support, but the job for you as an individual is to go on that walk yourself. And you have to stay in lockstep with whoever you pray to, like to get the answers. And I feel like that's where a lot of us

Roberta (1:01:54)
Hmm, mm-hmm.

Sonia (1:01:54)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Emanuel (1:02:13)
have fallen short due to how we've been indoctrinated into Protestant, American Protestant Christianity, which is organized religion answers all questions. And there is no proof of that whatsoever.

Roberta (1:02:23)
Hmph.

Sonia (1:02:23)
Hmm.

I feel like we're gonna ask related answers, no questions. I mean, I feel like all the answers is are, you'll find out in heaven.

Emanuel (1:02:29)
Absolutely.

Yadira (1:02:29)
in anything.

Emanuel (1:02:34)
Yeah, yeah.

Roberta (1:02:34)
Ha ha ha!

Yadira (1:02:35)
Yeah, and I think organized religion

has made us scared of our own spirituality. Because... Right, and it is... We've been taught that there is the spirit realm...

Emanuel (1:02:39)
I agree. I agree.

Sonia (1:02:40)
Mmm.

Roberta (1:02:40)
Yeah,

it's fear-based.

Yadira (1:02:47)
that you have your own connection, you have the ability to do that, right? This is the main difference between Catholicism versus Protestantism, right? But then when you start exploring and having those personal experiences that don't look like what they're supposed to look like in the church, then you're venturing out to something that is like, that's not of God. This is why, you can't watch sinners, that's not of God. Well, excuse me? Or you can't connect with the ancestors, that's not of God. Excuse me? This is all the spiritual.

Emanuel (1:02:54)
Mm-hmm, that's right.

Clock it. Clock it.

That's right. That's right.

Sonia (1:03:13)
Okay.

Emanuel (1:03:13)
Mm-hmm.

Yadira (1:03:15)
realm, you know, and

Emanuel (1:03:16)
Yeah.

Yadira (1:03:17)
I've been taught that I am capable of having this, you know, spiritual side of me and spiritual relationship. So why should I be scared if my entity is my God that protects and is all knowing and is all powerful?

Sonia (1:03:32)
Yeah, it's interesting because I had a conversation about that today about spirituality and you know, I think a lot of what we've been talking about has been centered around faith, right? But when we talk about spirituality, what does that mean to you? Like, what is that inclusive of? We know God is there, but what else is there that you are including in that spiritual definition?